The Warden Sword As An Item Of Power

[Sanctaphrax]

The recent thread about Warden Swords, combined with the fact that I'm updating the IoP list, inspired me to write up an Item of Power Warden Sword. Thanks to the Might Over Magic custom Power, it was easy.

Thoughts?

WARDEN SWORD [-1]
Description: The Wardens of the White Council are famed for their magical, super-sharp, spell-cutting silver swords. This is one of those swords. It was created by Luccio, the leader of the Wardens, specifically for a single Warden.
Musts: You must be a Warden of the White Council, with an Aspect reflecting that.
Note: Warden Swords are canonically Enchanted Items. This is an alternate interpretation.
Skills Affected: Weapons.
Effects:
[-0] Specific Wielder. A Warden Sword is only magical in the hands of the Warden it was made for.
[-1] It Is What It Is. It's a supernaturally sharp sword. Weapon 5 for the rightful bearer, weapon 3 for other people.
[-0] Unbreakable. As an Item of Power, this item cannot be broken except with a magical ritual that opposes its nature.
[+2] One-Time Discount. A full-sized sword is tricky to conceal at best.
[-2] Might Over Magic. A Warden Sword can cut magical spells the way a laser cuts butter.

[Locnil]

I've actually been thinking about something like this, and to be honest, I liked it better when a warden sword depended on their wielder's spellcasting abilities ins some way. But, yeah, this seems pretty good.

Edit: Also, where is the writeup for MoM? Can't seem to find it.

[Sanctaphrax]

I've actually been thinking about something like this, and to be honest, I liked it better when a warden sword depended on their wielder's spellcasting abilities ins some way.

Not sure what you mean by that...could you please explain?

Edit: Also, where is the writeup for MoM? Can't seem to find it.

Here.

Also here.

[Locnil]

Requiring Wardens to have a decent Fists/Weapons/Might score to use this power effectively makes it even weaker than the RAW version, espcially since it costs so much more. Basically, I'd prefer a power than either, say, enhanced the Warden's counterspelling ability, or at least depended on it and scaled in effectiveness along with his capabilities. As it is, people like Morgan wouldn't give two shits about their sword, which is explicitly not the case.

[Locnil]

Oh, and it still doesn't allow for a Warden to destroy another IoP with the sword, which it has done in canon. I understand if you'd rather handle it as an invocation, though.

[Sanctaphrax]

Requiring Wardens to have a decent Fists/Weapons/Might score to use this power effectively makes it even weaker than the RAW version, espcially since it costs so much more. Basically, I'd prefer a power than either, say, enhanced the Warden's counterspelling ability, or at least depended on it and scaled in effectiveness along with his capabilities. As it is, people like Morgan wouldn't give two shits about their sword, which is explicitly not the case.

Incorrect, I'm afraid. Morgan has Superb Weapons. With this, that's a 10-shift counterspell whenever he feels inclined. That's a lot better than what he can do normally. It also gives +2 to his defence rolls against magical attacks, which is likely to come in handy for a guy who goes after Warlocks.

Both the canon version and this version are much more useful for a Warden with high Weapons, which seems reasonable since Weapons is the sword skill. But even with Average Weapons, both this and the canon version let you toss out a 6-shift counterspell.

Oh, and the cost isn't that different. The canon Warden Sword costs half a Refinement, this costs as much as a whole one. So it's just half a Refresh.

Oh, and it still doesn't allow for a Warden to destroy another IoP with the sword, which it has done in canon. I understand if you'd rather handle it as an invocation, though.

Warden Swords can't normally destroy Items Of Power. Check out Madrigal's writeup in OW.

[Locnil]

More coherent reply will be round soon, but I'll just leave this here.

Your comparision of the costs rests on a false assumption. Why are you assuming that a Warden is going to want just one IoP? If he already has one, the sword's gonna costs him three points of Refresh. If he gets one, he has to pay full price for the second one. Even Morgan, under this circustance, is better off simply investing the Refresh in other powers that let him counterspell.

Also, something seems off about your math... can you break it down for me?

Edit: K, got your math. Nvm about the second one.

[Sanctaphrax]

I think it's pretty fair to assume that most Wardens won't have another Item of Power. Items of Power aren't exactly common.

And when you talk about "other powers that let him counterspell" what are you referring to?

[Wyntonian]

A Warden wouldn't need other powers, would they? As long as they have evocation, they can counterspell. The sword just makes it easier.

[Locnil]

A Warden wouldn't need other powers, would they? As long as they have evocation, they can counterspell. The sword just makes it easier.

This, actually. I was thinking along the lines of custom powers, maybe sponsored magic that enhance, instead of duplicate, a wizard's native counterspelling ability.

[Locnil]

Whether or not the Warden ever picks up another IoP, it's still intellectually dishonest to claim the power costs only [-1]. Technically Thaumaturgy costs only [-2] if I attach it to Feeding Dependency, that doesn't mean we should assume everyone with Thaumaturgy only paid two refresh for it. End of the day, the Warden pays six times as much for this as the RAW version. Whether in actual refresh or potential refresh, it's effectively, cost-wise the same. Not to mention the fact that a wizard autmatically gets eight enchanted item slots from their template, which makes getting a RAW warden sword doable right from the start, at a Chest Deep game, whereas Wardens now need an additional point of Refresh over the base wizard template.

[Lavecki121]

While this is true, the IoP version is also always usable. It will never cost you a hit to your mental track no matter how many times you use it. Additionally when you stat out an IoP you take into account the refresh you get back from the fact that you are externalizing the power. If your character chooses to have 7 IoP's, that is their choice but the sword would originally cost 1 refresh.

[Locnil]

Right, now moving on to the more comprehensive post I said I'd get to.

Note: This is an off-topic rant, and I've made sure that none of my argument rests on it. If you disagree, feel absolutely free to ignore it.

(click to show/hide)

How accurate do you think the NPC writeups are? It always seemed to me that the devs ran headfirst into the Elminster* problem - basically, a situation where they didn't want to make a PC feel absolutely outclassed against certain canon characters, yet also wanted to accurately portray them, and ended up making characters that outclass the PCs while still falling short of what they are supposed to be capable of. Worst of both worlds, which really isn't helped by almost every single supernatural being having a ridiculously high refresh. So, either you accept them as they are, which raises the question of how the hell they're so badass in the fiction, or you insist they're grossly understatted - which makes bestiary books like OW completely useless, causes a breakdown in communications when it comes to discussing those characters, and causes you to do more work if you want to use them.

*If you don't get it, replace Elminster with whatever supposedly high-powered canon NPC that exists in an RPG based on another media. For a whole number of reasons, this appears a near-universal problem

So, basically, a warden needs to have a decent Weapons score to use a sword effectively. Which makes sense, I concede. Doesn't change the fact it's still horribly suboptimal - for an additional three refresh, you can boost your regular spells by a significant amount, thus boosting your counterspelling, your defensive ability, your offensive ability, and possibly even more. End result - no warden player in their right mind would want to be one of those who still have a warden sword. It doesn't even have utility to a high refresh wizard, since by then their natural counterspelling abilties would be so much more effective it's just sad.

Also, regarding the specific example for Morgan, sure, with this power his counterspelling ability goes up. If those three refresh were spent on getting him a focus,  his counterspelling, offensive/defensive and maneuvering would also go up. By exactly the same amount. Each.

So the only advatage this grants is that it doesn't costs mental stress. So, I ask - how likely, is it, that it will be an issue? Think about it. Wizards are made for explosive violence. If it becomes an issue that this doesn't costs mental stress, the warden has probably already lost. The one exception is when you're fighting a spellcaster, without any allies on his side whatsoever, whose evocations are at the very specific level where they're powerful yet aren't that powerful (and whose power can't be jacked up in a hurry, which is... odd.) Counterspelling takes up an action. Sure you can wear him down, if he isn't smart enough to just take consequences to ramp up the power, if he has a very specific power level, if he doesn't have allies and/or your allies are stronger/equal to his, if he doesn't get desperate and unleash a death curse, if he doesn't just say fuck it and run away, if no one interrupts you at all during this fight, if he doesn't have any combat ability whatsoever than blasting away, then yes, this power rocks. Still not worth three refresh, at least for a spellcaster.

P.S. Right - might have missed something. If this power doesn't cost an action to use it becomes significantly better than I assumed. If that's to be it's sole advantage however, along with no mental stress, I still think you're going about this the wrong way.

[Locnil]

While this is true, the IoP version is also always usable. It will never cost you a hit to your mental track no matter how many times you use it. Additionally when you stat out an IoP you take into account the refresh you get back from the fact that you are externalizing the power. If your character chooses to have 7 IoP's, that is their choice but the sword would originally cost 1 refresh.

I've already adressed the mental stress one. Though granted, you did ninja me.

Regarding the second part - you know, there's a specific term in economics for that kind of thinking. It's also a known logical fallacy (Unfortunately, I can't remember it off-hand - might be Broken Window but am not sure).

Basically, saying the first one only costs 1 refresh is completely missing the point. The power costs three refresh. It's highly suggested that you take a flaw to reduce it's costs but it does not change the fact it costs three refresh.

The IoP flaw applies once. If you use it for the Warden Sword, you can't use it again. Meaning another character who went without gets an additional two refresh, for having exactly the same weakness as you. Except they probably spent it more optimally.

And yes, all IoPs come assuming that they're the only one you have. It's still false savings, because you can't ever get the discount again, so you essentially lose potential refresh that you otherwise could have had.

And before someone brings up the rarity of IoPs again, I'd like to point out that's purely a fluff thing that has no and should not have any bearing at all on mechanics. Hell, Santacphrax even wrote up a power to represent having a whole bunch of them.

[Locnil]

Lastly, on a somewhat less aggressive mode (I apologize if anyone was insulted or annoyed, btw, that was not my intention) I'd like to ask Sanctaphrax if he minds posting my version of an IoP Warden Sword sometime. I believe you would probably find it overpowered, given what I've noticed about your feel of refresh worth, along with most others, but I'd still like community feedback on it.