Jedi Knight

[Haru]

I was talking with a friend about True Believers, and we started to joke about a True Believer in the force. I have lately heard a lot about the church of the jedi. In britain, it is already quite popular, at least in some polls (though still in the 0.something percent). Regardless, the jedi codex is a pretty good code of honor, and even though they might not believe in god, someone who really follows the code would probably be worthy of the white gods aid.

Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.
Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others.
Jedi respect all life, in any form.
Jedi serve others, rather than rule over them, for the good of the galaxy.
Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training.

So I wondered, how hard would it be to create a believable jedi knight to live in the dresden world. If you look at „Guide my hand“, for example, it seems to be doing exactly what Luke did, when he shot down the death star. When he shut down the targeting system (guns or driving), he trusted the force to help him make the shot (conviction replacement). Perfect. Magic and faith powers can cover the rest, and the force becomes just another way the white god (or whoever is behind even him) manifests as a force for good.

I went with some repainted True Believer powers, that fit quite well, and I created two powers to accommodate for the (I think) most common uses of the force. I briefly debated going with channeling (the force), but I thought it be better this way. The uses are fairly limited, I think, and if the jedi abuses them, he can be put down pretty quickly by a compel. I also thought about sponsored magic (the force), but I think that would be a bit pricey for what little you might actually be able to do.
And of course, we can't forget the light saber. Nothing too fancy, I think, though it is still a freaking light saber.

I'd appreciate your feedback on this.

Jedi Powers:

Let the Force Guide you [-1] (Guide my Hand)
To Defend and Protect [-1] (Bless this House)
Telekinesis [-1]: You may use your conviction instead of your might skill to lift and move objects up to one zone away.
These aren't the droids you're looking for [-1]: You may use your discipline instead of deceit to convince someone of a lie, as long as the lie is not harmful to them, and you are in the same zone as they are.

Light Saber [-2]
It is what it is: And that is a very detailed replica of a light saber, including fake tech inside. Carried around by quite a few star wars fans, there are extremely few who can actually get use out of their prop. Only in a time of great bravery,  the force awakens in the jedi knight. After this, as long as he acts according to the jedi codex, he will be able to activate the light saber at his will, so it becomes a weapon:3, as if it were a real two-handed sword.
True Aim [-1]: When swung in keeping with its purpose, a Sword of the Cross grants a +1 to the wielder’s Weapons skill.
Deflect [-1]: A jedi knight is able to deflect ranged attacks with his sword, using weapons instead of athletics to defend against them.
Blade of light [-1]: The light saber acts as an artifact of faith, satisfying the catch of any creature vulnurable to it. Furthermore, the seering blade also counts as a source of fire for the same purposes.
One time Discount [+1]: When not in use, it is a well crafted but short and inconspicuous piece of a costume, easy to hide, even in plain sight.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'm really skeptical about the Jedi Mind Trick being available in the Dresdenverse without it really messing up both it's user and it's victim. Mind control simply isn't pretty in the universe. It'd be fine in the actual Star Wars universe, but in-universe, I'm less willing to accept it.

And, again in-universe, I'm really wondering where the hell you get a light saber. Them just generating spontaneously seems kinda weak, really.

On a more mechanical note, I'd argue that 'blade of fire' isn't worth -1 Refresh. Satisfying a Catch or two isn't worth Refresh as a rule...basically everything does it. Maybe replace it with some bonus to damage, ignoring armor, destroying property, or something like that.

[Haru]

I know, I was weary on that, too, but I kind of thought the mind trick might not really be mind manipulation in this case, but good fortune on the side of the jedi. Maybe it could be covered under "Guide my Hand" again, since it is using the force (which would be conviction instead of discipline like I wrote above), to solve a problem:

Faith Manages. Given the time to pray for guidance
and provided that your goals are pure
and your actions are selfless, you may spend a
fate point to use your Conviction skill instead
of any other skill for one roll. This effect
cannot be used for any attacks or maneuvers,
but it can be used to bypass other kinds of
obstacles.

Might fit better this way. I did not intent to make the jedi knight a lawbreaker. Though I thought it might warrant a separate power, this solution might actually fit better.


The Light Saber is not generated spontaneously. There are quite a few people who take their star wars cosplay quite serious, up to the point where they actually live their role (at least part time). Granted, there might not be as much as there are christians, but they are there. And they have light saber replicas. Any item can be used as an enchanted item or focus item, so I thought their dedication to detail and their upstanding of the codex even in everyday life would be enough to turn them into sort of one trick pony enchanters, creating the light saber. With the blessing of the powers that be, disguised as the force, the light saber will start to work in an hour of need, when the jedi knight shows an act of bravery. This is kind of because of the backstory I had in mind for the first character of that sort. Just thought while I'm going for the force, I might as well go all the way and add a light saber.

I actually thought about making it a light saber of the cross, but I thought that'd be really pushing it.


The sotc kind of have it though, and only for holy. They don't have refresh costs listed for the individual powers, which has bugged me on more than one occasion. But I believe it is a power, because you usually need a holy aspect, that you create as a maneuver and then tag or spend a fate point on to be active. This power is permanently invoking the holy aspect on the swords. In this case, I'm throwing in an additional fire aspect for free. Seems like a good trade off, I think. You don't so much have to do this on corporeal catches like Iron, but insubstantial catches like "holy" are another matter, I think.

[Deadmanwalking]

Guide My Hand buffs you up, not makes others do anything, but yeah, it'd work sufficiently for that, I think.

As for the 'generates spontaneously', I was referring to the power, not the object. Items of Power are rare and really potent, it seems weird for them to generate spontaneously out of a single person's raw Faith. I could see it if you had someone who not only believed in the Jedi code, but who a large number of other people legitimately believed was some sort of Jedi...but that's a really weird situation. More so than it seems like you're going for. I mean, if it were as easy as one person's Faith, just about every True Believer out there would have such an Item, wouldn't they?

And SotC lacks a Catch mechanic, making special effects like that a lot more powerful and generally applicable (especially since you can't get them many other ways). In the DFRPG, Holy is 'just' something that satisfies a +2 Catch, not a lot more powerful than having the weapon be made of iron or wood (both valid catches that don't apply to the light saber).

[Haru]

Guide My Hand buffs you up, not makes others do anything, but yeah, it'd work sufficiently for that, I think.

It's not really about buffing up, I think. You could, for example, use it to overcome a locked door, by replacing burglary with conviction, and suddenly you notice the key in the gutter, that someone must have lost. Or getting past a guard who is asking too many questions. While the jedi might think it is the force, it is divine intervention. Yeah, I think that fits better.

As for the 'generates spontaneously', I was referring to the power, not the object. Items of Power are rare and really potent, it seems weird for them to generate spontaneously out of a single person's raw Faith. I could see it if you had someone who not only believed in the Jedi code, but who a large number of other people legitimately believed was some sort of Jedi...but that's a really weird situation. More so than it seems like you're going for. I mean, if it were as easy as one person's Faith, just about every True Believer out there would have such an Item, wouldn't they?

Yeah, I know what you mean, I just thought it would be cool to have a real light saber going along with the whole concept.
Maybe it could be some sort of one trick pony crafting thing, where the future jedi knight has some divine inspiration to create a magic item that will later be his light saber. The whole thing could be a long journey, a quest with lots of tests to measure the jedi's heart and intent. The "activated by a good deed" thing would be a cool feature to finish the quest.

And SotC lacks a Catch mechanic, making special effects like that a lot more powerful and generally applicable (especially since you can't get them many other ways). In the DFRPG, Holy is 'just' something that satisfies a +2 Catch, not a lot more powerful than having the weapon be made of iron or wood (both valid catches that don't apply to the light saber).

Oh, I meant Swords of the Cross, not Spirit of the Century, sorry for the confusion. It has the sub-power "Holy", which does exactly what I wrote up there. If it wasn't worth a refresh, there wouldn't be a power for it outside of the swords, because any true believer could be attributed with "holy" for all purposes of the power, but that isn't done.
You could say a prayer as a maneuver and tag the aspect to get that effect as well, but the Holy power is a shortcut to this end, removing the need for this maneuver and giving you the benefits of the aspect right away.
Not even the swords of the cross have bonus on damage, and they have 5 points worth of refresh spent on them.

[Deadmanwalking]

It's not really about buffing up, I think. You could, for example, use it to overcome a locked door, by replacing burglary with conviction, and suddenly you notice the key in the gutter, that someone must have lost. Or getting past a guard who is asking too many questions. While the jedi might think it is the force, it is divine intervention. Yeah, I think that fits better.

True enough. 

Yeah, I know what you mean, I just thought it would be cool to have a real light saber going along with the whole concept.

Oh, it is, I just think some more complete explanation would be needed.

Maybe it could be some sort of one trick pony crafting thing, where the future jedi knight has some divine inspiration to create a magic item that will later be his light saber. The whole thing could be a long journey, a quest with lots of tests to measure the jedi's heart and intent. The "activated by a good deed" thing would be a cool feature to finish the quest.

Something like that would be more like it, yeah.

Oh, I meant Swords of the Cross, not Spirit of the Century, sorry for the confusion. It has the sub-power "Holy", which does exactly what I wrote up there. If it wasn't worth a refresh, there wouldn't be a power for it outside of the swords, because any true believer could be attributed with "holy" for all purposes of the power, but that isn't done.

Well, Unbreakable and It's A Sword are also listed and those are hardly costed.

The breakdown I've always assumed for a Sword's cost is -1 for True Aim, -4 for 'All Creatures Are Equal Before God' which is very worth that price.

You could say a prayer as a maneuver and tag the aspect to get that effect as well, but the Holy power is a shortcut to this end, removing the need for this maneuver and giving you the benefits of the aspect right away.

I don't necessarily disagree. I just don't think fulfilling any specific Catch is worth Refresh. I mean, you don't need to pay Refesh to be in love, and that satisfies a harder rarer Catch than Holy.

Not even the swords of the cross have bonus on damage, and they have 5 points worth of refresh spent on them.

Doesn't necessarily mean anything, it's Refresh was spent on other things (the ability to satisfy any Catch among them).

[Haru]

Hmm, you could even go and upgrade the light saber gradually, if you start building it during the campaign. Even more awesome.
Great, that's 2 down.

Well, Unbreakable and It's A Sword are also listed and those are hardly costed.

The breakdown I've always assumed for a Sword's cost is -1 for True Aim, -4 for 'All Creatures Are Equal Before God' which is very worth that price.

That's what I meant earlier, when I said I am missing an official breakdown on the powers there. I had -1 true aim, -3 all creatures and -1 for holy. Unbreakable and "It is what it is" are inherent to an IoP, they never cost extra.

I don't necessarily disagree. I just don't think fulfilling any specific Catch is worth Refresh. I mean, you don't need to pay Refesh to be in love, and that satisfies a harder rarer Catch than Holy.

It's sort of a "supernatural vs. mundane" sort of thing I see here. True Love, while extremely rare, is still something that can be created or had without any ties to anything supernatural.

I see the same logic for the holy power applies for the holy attribute on a weapon. I could go and bless a sword, give it the aspect "holy" and it is essentially the same as a a genuine holy weapon for the time being. The difference is, that the invoke that came from the tag on the newly created "holy" aspect in this case would be permanently invoked by dedicating one point of refresh to it. That's how a lot of the stunts (and some of the minor powers) actually work, you spend one refresh and log that fate point in forever.
You can't really do a ritual like that with love, if you are in love that is part of your being, represented in your aspects. And you can spend fate points on it, to deter white court vampires. Or create a similar power as Holy and call it True Love, but Holy is a rather broad catch, and it feels like nearly half of the creatures out there can be hurt by holy stuff, so having it easily available definitely is a big plus and easily worth the one point of refresh. For true love, it is only partially worth it. If you are playing in a game where you are only up against white court vampires, holy isn't really worth much, while you will probably use True Love in almost every scene. I would give Justine a power like that.

[Deadmanwalking]

Basing the cost of having access to a Catch on how often you use it results in silliness. That results in things like needing to pay Refresh to carry around an ordinary knife in a Fae heavy (or exclusive) game simply because it's Cold Iron.

Look at Holy Touch or Righteousness, both of those deal Holy damage and neither appears balanced on the basis of that damage costing a full point of Refresh (or, debatably, any at all, I'd say Claws and Holy Touch are on par even if you reflavor Claws to deal holy damage for Catch bypassing purposes).

[Sanctaphrax]

Before I post an actual reply, here are some relevant links:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32665.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24272.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26362.0.html

[Sanctaphrax]

Telekinesis [-1]: You may use your conviction instead of your might skill to lift and move objects up to one zone away.
These aren't the droids you're looking for [-1]: You may use your discipline instead of deceit to convince someone of a lie, as long as the lie is not harmful to them, and you are in the same zone as they are.

These seem a bit too stunt-like to me, and they overlap sub-optimally with Guide My Hand.

On a related note, have you seen the Telekinesis custom Power?

Blade of light [-1]: The light saber acts as an artifact of faith, satisfying the catch of any creature vulnurable to it. Furthermore, the seering blade also counts as a source of fire for the same purposes.

I think I'm with Deadmanwalking on this one. I used to cost the Holy property of the SotC at 1 Refresh, but I've changed my mind on that.

[Haru]

Basing the cost of having access to a Catch on how often you use it results in silliness. That results in things like needing to pay Refresh to carry around an ordinary knife in a Fae heavy (or exclusive) game simply because it's Cold Iron.

Like I said, to me that's sort of a mundane vs. supernatural thing.

But maybe you are right, I'll take it off.

These seem a bit too stunt-like to me, and they overlap sub-optimally with Guide My Hand.

Guide my Hand costs a fate point, telekinesis does not, I think that's enough of a benefit to warrant a separate power. And I've already decided to axe the Jedi Mind Trick and wrap it into Guide my Hand.

On a related note, have you seen the Telekinesis custom Power?

I have not. I find the custom power list rather difficult to maneuver, if you have a link, I'll gladly look it up, maybe it fits better than mine.

[Oblyss]

Just a thought, but maybe Mind trick works like Glamour?

Edit: Maybe The Catch: Only people in one zone are affected by the trick. You can choose which targets in those zone are affected. So it'd only cost one refresh.

[Sanctaphrax]

Guide my Hand costs a fate point, telekinesis does not, I think that's enough of a benefit to warrant a separate power.

Not what I meant. It just seems inefficient to spend Refresh on both Guide My Hand and Telekinesis.

I have not. I find the custom power list rather difficult to maneuver...

How so?

Does the search function not work for you?

Or is there some organizational problem?

...if you have a link, I'll gladly look it up, maybe it fits better than mine.

(click to show/hide)

TELEKINESIS [-3]
Description: You can exert physical force with the power of your mind alone.
Skills Affected: Conviction, Discipline
Effects:
Mind Over Matter. You may use your mind to exert force upon targets within your line of sight. This allows you to use all applications of the Might skill at a distance, using your Conviction skill instead of your Might skill. You may also perform other physical tasks mentally with your line of sight, using your Discipline skill to represent your dexterity.
Telekinetic Attacks. You may make physical attacks and maneuvers against targets within your line of sight using your mental powers. These attacks and maneuvers are controlled with Discipline and may be made with or without a melee weapon. Attacks made with this power without a weapon are weapon: 2.
Blades Of Force [-1]. When using Telekinetic Attacks without a weapon, your attacks are weapon: 4.
Force Field [-1]. You are protected by a shell of telekinetic power. You may use your Discipline skill to defend against physical attacks or to create physical blocks.
Telekinetic Self-Propulsion [-2]. Your telekinesis is strong enough to let you carry yourself. This allows you to fly as though you had the Wings power, using Discipline instead of Athletics to move around in the air.
Metaphysical Strength [-0]. (Requires Inhuman Or Better Strength) Your Strength powers apply to your Telekinesis rather than to your physical body. This increases your Conviction when using it to lift or break things, helps with your mental grapples, and increases the stress inflicted by your Telekinetic Attacks.
Unification Of Mind And Body [-1]. (Requires Metaphysical Strength) Your Strength powers apply to both your Telekinesis and your physical body. This provides all the benefits of Metaphysical Strength alongside all the benefits of ordinary strength.

Just a thought, but maybe Mind trick works like Glamour?

Edit: Maybe The Catch: Only people in one zone are affected by the trick. You can choose which targets in those zone are affected. So it'd only cost one refresh.

You can't have The Catch for a non-Toughness Power.

[Haru]

Not what I meant. It just seems inefficient to spend Refresh on both Guide My Hand and Telekinesis.

Telekinesis can't do everything that Guide my Hand can do, and Guide my Hand costs a fate point each time you want to use it. I just thought it would be a good way to take the most common use of Guide my Hand for a jedi and have him use it without spending a fate point every time.

How so?

Does the search function not work for you?

Or is there some organizational problem?

Huh, I was always under the impression that it was the 50+ pages thread. I just saw the link to the open office document. My bad.

(click to show/hide)

TELEKINESIS [-3]
Description: You can exert physical force with the power of your mind alone.
Skills Affected: Conviction, Discipline
Effects:
Mind Over Matter. You may use your mind to exert force upon targets within your line of sight. This allows you to use all applications of the Might skill at a distance, using your Conviction skill instead of your Might skill. You may also perform other physical tasks mentally with your line of sight, using your Discipline skill to represent your dexterity.
Telekinetic Attacks. You may make physical attacks and maneuvers against targets within your line of sight using your mental powers. These attacks and maneuvers are controlled with Discipline and may be made with or without a melee weapon. Attacks made with this power without a weapon are weapon: 2.
Blades Of Force [-1]. When using Telekinetic Attacks without a weapon, your attacks are weapon: 4.
Force Field [-1]. You are protected by a shell of telekinetic power. You may use your Discipline skill to defend against physical attacks or to create physical blocks.
Telekinetic Self-Propulsion [-2]. Your telekinesis is strong enough to let you carry yourself. This allows you to fly as though you had the Wings power, using Discipline instead of Athletics to move around in the air.
Metaphysical Strength [-0]. (Requires Inhuman Or Better Strength) Your Strength powers apply to your Telekinesis rather than to your physical body. This increases your Conviction when using it to lift or break things, helps with your mental grapples, and increases the stress inflicted by your Telekinetic Attacks.
Unification Of Mind And Body [-1]. (Requires Metaphysical Strength) Your Strength powers apply to both your Telekinesis and your physical body. This provides all the benefits of Metaphysical Strength alongside all the benefits of ordinary strength.

If I understand this correctly, it is basically breath weapons + a conviction for might stunt in its base form, right? Looks good so far, but I don't really want the jedi to have a telekinetic attack. As maneuvers, sure, but not as attacks. Doesn't seem all that honorable and jedi-like to me. The question now would be, is the attack part worth 1 or 2 refresh, in order for the power to outright replace might, so you can maneuver with it. I could see arguments for both. Thoughts?

Hmm, on the other hand, they do sometimes fling stuff around at other people. But it feels like those should be maneuvers and blocks rather than attacks. Like I said, honor and all that.

Oh, why did you price "Telekinetic Self-Propulsion" at -2? Wings only costs -1, and it seems identical. This one even has a -3 power as a prerequisite. Because of the actual, visible wings, the wings power comes with? Still, seems overpriced.


The next thing could be a sith powered by hell, I suppose. 

[Sanctaphrax]

If I understand this correctly, it is basically breath weapons + a conviction for might stunt in its base form, right? Looks good so far, but I don't really want the jedi to have a telekinetic attack. As maneuvers, sure, but not as attacks. Doesn't seem all that honorable and jedi-like to me.

It's substantially better than that, since its attack range is your line of sight instead of 1 zone. And since it lets you grapple/lift/break/play piano at line of sight range. And since unlike a Stunt it allows you to use Conviction for all applications of Might. And since you can use weapons to do a bit of extra damage.

Looks good so far, but I don't really want the jedi to have a telekinetic attack. As maneuvers, sure, but not as attacks. Doesn't seem all that honorable and jedi-like to me.

If the Jedi can't attack with their Powers, then why does their code of honour say they can't attack with their powers? No point prohibiting the impossible. I'd rather have the force choke/telekinetic projectile option be available to any Jedi willing to take that step.

The question now would be, is the attack part worth 1 or 2 refresh, in order for the power to outright replace might, so you can maneuver with it. I could see arguments for both. Thoughts?

I dunno if it's even worth 1 Refresh. 2 Refresh attack-less Telekinesis makes Long Reach look kinda sad...on the other hand, maybe I made Long Reach too weak. I get the impression most people don't value range as highly as I do.

Regardless, it's definitely not worth 2 Refresh.

Oh, why did you price "Telekinetic Self-Propulsion" at -2? Wings only costs -1, and it seems identical. This one even has a -3 power as a prerequisite. Because of the actual, visible wings, the wings power comes with? Still, seems overpriced.

Wings + a Discipline stunt. Wings is underpriced, so I didn't want to push my luck when imitating it.

I considered making the upgrade 1 Refresh with Force Field as a prereq, since it makes sense that somebody moving with Discipline could dodge with Discipline and since the existing prereq is kind of steep.