Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]

[123456789blaaa]

Just putting this here so that I can put this thread in the Reference Collection Index and not have this collection lost to time (and have to retype it).

From Storm Front, Chapter 6:

Santa is a much bigger and more powerful faery than Toot, and I don't know his true name anyway. You'd never see me trying to nab Saint Nick in a magic circle even if I did. I don't think anyone has stones that big.

From page 50 of the DFRPG-Our World:

The "Wyld Courts": There are a couple of powerful Sidhe on par with the Faerie Queens-the Earlking is on of them, and it's rumored-DON'T LAUGH!-that Santa Claus (a brownie Sidhe) may be another.

From the WoJ compilation:

Priscillie asked Jim if the Erlking is Wyldfae at DragonCon and posted this reply:
Jim: He is wyldfae.  He isn't a subject of Mab or Titania.  That's what Wyldfae means.  But his origins are in the Summer-side of the cycle of seasons, just like Titania's are.
Ditto Santa, only in Winter. 
(He /is/ beholden to Mother Summer, but basically everyone in Faerie is, so.)
(I mean, that's like saying "you must obey the law of gravity."  Duh.)

From the 2012 JimButcher AMA Reddit Q&A:

Dudesan: You've described Santa Claus as being the Winter King. What does that title mean? Do Winter and Summer each have a trinity of Father/King/Prince, like they do with Mother/Queen/Lady? Is the King necessarily the consort of the Queen? If so, will we be seeing Oberon at some point?
Jim: 5) The Faerie realms just aren't that structured. It's more accurate to say that he is /a/ Winter King. Or even more accurately, that he is a free Wyld Fae who is of a power level that is on par with Mab's and happens to neighbor her sphere of influence, and finds it simpler to show up to family dinners during the holidays and make polite than to start staking out boundaries and establishing treaties.
Oberon... well, the guy kind of wound up between Mab and Titania in one of those romantic triangle things, back around Shakespeare's day. He didn't make it.

EDIT: From the recent KC signing:

Is Kringle Fae?
Is Kringle Fae? His mantle, yes, is part of the Winter Court. Which does not necessarily mean that he himself is Fae as much as the fact that his mantle is. While he’s there, he’s got to pay deference to Mab. If Mab gives him a command, he has to obey it. Mab’s too smart to throw him many commands, it’s much smarter to just let him do his thing. Because it’s this mysterious Christmas-y stuff anyway, cheer and goodwill, whatever. She supposes it’s good to have somebody like that for PR. That at times could be useful. It’s like, oh, so, Winter Court, whole season of death, evil, but then it’s like,  yeah, Christmas! Oh, wow, yeah, you’re right. It’s like the schools are trying to buy the tobacco company. **unintelligible** It’s something of the same thing. And besides which, if she doesn’t give him a bunch of orders and stuff, then basically, when she does go to him and say, “I need to know something”, that really, what can you do, this is our game of give-and-take. So, in a way, it’s not really a subservient relationship, Mab’s too smart for it to be that.

Incidently, this also confirms my thought that Odin only becomes Fae when he dons the Mantle of Kringle  .

EDIT: upon rereading I think this should actually be in the non-spoiler section. Mods?

[KevinSig]

You missed this one...

She gave me a look of skepticism you can really only get from children who have recently gone through the sobering trauma of discovering that there is no Santa Claus. (Ironically, there is–but he can’t operate on the sort of scale that used to make everyone believe in him. More modern living.)

Plus, there's the one from Changes about Santa playing football.

Yes, they aren't specifically references to Santa being a member of the Fae, but they do add a bit to the background.

[123456789blaaa]

You missed this one...

Plus, there's the one from Changes about Santa playing football.

Those don't say anything about Santa being a Fae though. It's pretty clear that Santa exists in the Dresdenverse. I created this list specifically for the people on the forums who doubted that Santa was one of the Fae.

[KevinSig]

Those don't say anything about Santa being a Fae though. It's pretty clear that Santa exists in the Dresdenverse. I created this list specifically for the people on the forums who doubted that Santa was one of the Fae.

Well, I have my niggling little doubts,

(click to show/hide)

as Odin's entire office was made of stainless steel.  And Santa's mail armor appeared to be steel, but Harry thinks it must have obviously been something else.

And I didn't pick up that he had to commit to the truth, like Mab might.

I guess it comes down to what exactly makes a member of the Fae, Fae to begin with.

[123456789blaaa]

Well, I have my niggling little doubts, as Odin's entire office was made of stainless steel.  And Santa's mail armor appeared to be steel, but Harry thinks it must have obviously been something else.

And I didn't pick up that he had to commit to the truth, like Mab might.

I guess it comes down to what exactly makes a member of the Fae, Fae to begin with.

My thinking is that Odin turns into a Fae when he dons the Mantle of Santa Claus. Also, I can't recall Santa lying anywhere in CD.

[wizard nelson]

(click to show/hide)

well its not so much that i doubt it as this: odin at some point started out in his most original form as a sidhe. after gaining followers and acruing power through various mean, he became more, hence his ability to handle iron. odin still holds(or perhaps captured it somehow, when people first believed in santa?) the kringle mantle which is a fae mantle. idk if as kringle iron becomes his kryptonite though... so yes, odin was fae, he holds a fae mantle. but he himself is not beholden to the nature of being of fairy anymore. specifically you might say its because he has his own demense  but so does erlking, so thats inconclusive evidence.

[123456789blaaa]

well its not so much that i doubt it as this: odin at some point started out in his most original form as a sidhe. after gaining followers and acruing power through various mean, he became more, hence his ability to handle iron. odin still holds(or perhaps captured it somehow, when people first believed in santa?) the kringle mantle which is a fae mantle. idk if as kringle iron becomes his kryptonite though... so yes, odin was fae, he holds a fae mantle. but he himself is not beholden to the nature of being of fairy anymore. specifically you might be able to say its because he has his own demense  but so does erlking, so thats inconclusive evidence.

I don't think this is true because Odin himself has 0 connections to Faeries in any of the myths. Heck, the only Fae connections I can see with Santa are the "elves" (may be brownies in the Dresdenverse) that work in his workshop.

[wizard nelson]

(click to show/hide)

I don't think this is true because Odin himself has 0 connections to Faeries in any of the myths. Heck, the only Fae connections I can see with Santa are the "elves" (may be brownies in the Dresdenverse) that work in his workshop.

(click to show/hide)

then maybe he holds the all-father mantle...? because at one point when he was the main god worshipped i feel he must have rivaled mab in power. it seems natural to me he has grown beyond simple sidhe life. not all of the NN is fairy you know...

[KevinSig]

(click to show/hide)

My thinking is that Odin turns into a Fae when he dons the Mantle of Santa Claus. Also, I can't recall Santa lying anywhere in CD.

(click to show/hide)

Not so much lying, but speaking plainly.  Something you don't get from the lesser queens much.  Heck, Cat Sith & Lea get more tricksey than Santa seemed to be.

[123456789blaaa]

Not so much lying, but speaking plainly.  Something you don't get from the lesser queens much.  Heck, Cat Sith & Lea get more tricksey than Santa seemed to be.

Well that's more of a personality trait of most of the Fae than an ironclad rule (like the no-lying thing is). IMO it wouldn't fit for Santa to be deceptive and tricksy, it completely goes against his image. Besides the Little Folk aren't deceptive or tricksy at all (from what we've seen). Trolls, rawheads, and shellycobs don't seem so cunning either.

[Ms Duck]

(click to show/hide)

I don't think this is true because Odin himself has 0 connections to Faeries in any of the myths. Heck, the only Fae connections I can see with Santa are the "elves" (may be brownies in the Dresdenverse) that work in his workshop.

(click to show/hide)

beg pardon, but santa has tons of connections to faeries in the myths. they just werent called faeries. they were called Vanir (friendly people is one well known translation). also of course the svartalves, and other folks. Heck one of Odin's wives was the Jotun Queen of Winter.

 the Eddas are composed of a mix of germanic, celtic,scandanvain and christain mythologies. lots of fae in there.

[123456789blaaa]

beg pardon, but santa has tons of connections to faeries in the myths. they just werent called faeries. they were called Vanir (friendly people is one well known translation). also of course the svartalves, and other folks. Heck one of Odin's wives was the Jotun Queen of Winter.

 the Eddas are composed of a mix of germanic, celtic,scandanvain and christain mythologies. lots of fae in there.

Huh...goes to show how much I know about norse mythology  . Still, to my knowledge there's no indication in the myths that Odin himself is a Faerie.

Off-topic question: Do you think the Jotun are Winter Fae (and that the Jotun Queen of Winter is Mab or a Mantle of Mab's)?  Gard calls the Fomor "cousins of the Jotun" and we know that there was a ton of interbreeding between the Fomor and the Fae ages ago...

If this is true than a potentially interesting way to go would be for both Kings of the Courts to be the consorts of the Queens (as opposed to the Knights who are consort to all 3 of the trinity). This would have played into the "Kings are the opposite of Queens in their given season" thing that the Kings had going on. Unfortunately we know Jim has chosen a different direction due to this WoJ:

Dudesan: You've described Santa Claus as being the Winter King. What does that title mean? Do Winter and Summer each have a trinity of Father/King/Prince, like they do with Mother/Queen/Lady? Is the King necessarily the consort of the Queen? If so, will we be seeing Oberon at some point?
Jim: 5) The Faerie realms just aren't that structured. It's more accurate to say that he is /a/ Winter King. Or even more accurately, that he is a free Wyld Fae who is of a power level that is on par with Mab's and happens to neighbor her sphere of influence, and finds it simpler to show up to family dinners during the holidays and make polite than to start staking out boundaries and establishing treaties.
Oberon... well, the guy kind of wound up between Mab and Titania in one of those romantic triangle things, back around Shakespeare's day. He didn't make it.

[Ms Duck]

(click to show/hide)

Huh...goes to show how much I know about norse mythology  . Still, to my knowledge there's no indication in the myths that Odin himself is a Faerie.

Off-topic question: Do you think the Jotun are Winter Fae (and that the Jotun Queen of Winter is Mab or a Mantle of Mab's)?  Gard calls the Fomor "cousins of the Jotun" and we know that there was a ton of interbreeding between the Fomor and the Fae ages ago...

If this is true than a potentially interesting way to go would be for both Kings of the Courts to be the consorts of the Queens (as opposed to the Knights who are consort to all 3 of the trinity). This would have played into the "Kings are the opposite of Queens in their given season" thing that the Kings had going on. Unfortunately we know Jim has chosen a different direction due to this WoJ:

(click to show/hide)

it depends on how much weight you want to give Odin's words in changes. if you do believe him, then its very very likely he was the 'Jarl of Summer' back in the days when the balance was kept by Aesir Vs Jotuns, not summer sidhe/ winter sidhe as now.

I suspect the people change, but the purpose does not; the idea is one can go back even farther and find things like

gods/ titans
tians/ chtonics
chtonics/ dragons

almost all relgions share the idea of a 'nature goddess' and some sort of personifactions for summer/ winter..


this leads to this:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.msg1452282.html#msg1452282

[Arcane]

Here's a quote that might be relevant to Santa's true nature.

(click to show/hide)

Kringle let out another rumbling laugh.  It absolutely filled the air around him.  "Surely you knew I made my home among the beings of Faerie.  Did you think I would be a vassal of Summer lad?"

Note the operative word.  He doesn't say to Harry that he is a being of Faerie, just that he made his home among them.  That could suggest that while he dons a Faerie mantle, he is not necessarily of Faerie himself.  A situation similar to Harry, in fact.  Harry's a mortal with the Winter Knight Mantle.  And Odin could be a god wearing (at least from Halloween to Christmas) the Winter King Mantle of Santa Claus.

[Orloth]

(click to show/hide)

One thing that I think is getting in the way here is the Iron weakness.  Are Fae weak to Iron because they are Fae? or is there something special about Iron that disrupts Ectoplasmic energies?  Has it always been so? or is that one of the rules that has changed over time (like Wizard's spoiling milk)?  ((Isn't Iron the most atomically stable of elements?  That might have something to do with it.))  What is also important, to my mind, is what Iron does to Harry in CD.  Whenever he gets iron under his skin, he stops being the Knight until it is removed.

We also know that many notable figures in the NeverNever were once Mortals who, after having accrued enough power and maybe a few worshipers, became something else.  Maybe Iron is used as a leveler to cancel out some of that power, setting the individual back at something closer to mortal.  To those who are no longer anything resembling Human, it can be lethal (like mixing a Cyborg and an EMP), but to those who have maintained some semblance of self over the years, it is much more like simply switching a business suit for lounge wear.  Therefore, Kringle is who he is with the power he currently has, Vadderung is who is in when he is at home and can kick off his shoes.  (To this end, I wouldn't be surprised if Dresden rigged up something similar so that he wouldn't have to deal with the WK urges on his off hours.  Maybe just a thumbtack on the arm.)