Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]

[aShorty21]

I like this thought I copied from TheCuriousFan. The idea that Harry has gained some abilities from the Wild Hunt. My thought would be he would of gained even more than Thomas since he led the thing and was more than just a member.

He gritted his teeth and shook his head. "Since last year... since the Erlking... I've had... intuitions, maybe? Maybe just instincts. I can feel things in the air better now than before. I think the Wild Hunt is coming toward us. I think a lot of things are coming toward us."

A sense for the Wild Hunt and some general instincts + maybe better senses depending on how you read the feel things in the air line.

[KevinSig]

I just worked something out.  Mantles can't be changed until Halloween night.  That's when the immortals come out and add & subtract bits of their Mantles. 

So we might want to pay attention to that period of time.  The Winter mantle certainly makes him enjoy the battle more than normal, but until he went one on one with Maeve he seemed mostly himself.

So maybe it wasn't until then that Harry started to take control of the mantle & make it his own.

[peregrine]

That's not quite true.  On Halloween Mantles can be changed, but that is not the only time.

[KevinSig]

That's not quite true.  On Halloween Mantles can be changed, but that is not the only time.

What other time are you talking about?  Bob only mentioned Halloween as a time when a mantle can undergo change in its nature.  Yes, the Winter Knight mantle can be handed off any any time of the year, but we are talking about changing the nature of the mantle & maybe permanently fusing it with the mantle of the Warden.

Yes, there might be other conjunctions where an immortal can be killed, such as the stone table, but changing the nature of a mantle might be limited to that particular date.

When Lily got the mantle of the Summer Lady it wasn't changed.  The change I'm thinking of, is like Odin making the mantle of Santa Claus.  One that didn't exist prior.  That was more of a fundamental change, than just swapping vessels.

[Ms Duck]

What other time are you talking about?  Bob only mentioned Halloween as a time when a mantle can undergo change in its nature.  Yes, the Winter Knight mantle can be handed off any any time of the year, but we are talking about changing the nature of the mantle & maybe permanently fusing it with the mantle of the Warden.

Yes, there might be other conjunctions where an immortal can be killed, such as the stone table, but changing the nature of a mantle might be limited to that particular date.

When Lily got the mantle of the Summer Lady it wasn't changed.  The change I'm thinking of, is like Odin making the mantle of Santa Claus.  One that didn't exist prior.  That was more of a fundamental change, than just swapping vessels.

I suspect it depends on the nature of the mantle. if im even 10% right about how Mab's works, its allways changing as the database updates itself with new potential futures. lesser mantles may be static but anything that complex is either self referencing or downright self aware.

[KevinSig]

I suspect it depends on the nature of the mantle. if im even 10% right about how Mab's works, its allways changing as the database updates itself with new potential futures. lesser mantles may be static but anything that complex is either self referencing or downright self aware.

See the section where Harry's mantle gives him unhelpful advice on how to fight Fix, & how Harry points out that Slate killed the previous Summer Knight by shoving him down the stairs (thus, ignoring the mantle).  The mantle doesn't learn, it's just an unthinking bunch of occasionally helpful instinctual commands.  It is up to the Knight who holds them to choose to listen or ignore these imperatives.

Bob believed that the mantle could not be changed & from Harry's descriptions of past WKs, if it changes any, it must be a glacially slow process.  Mab spent a lot of time energy getting Harry specifically.  Maybe because she knew he was the sort whose Will, could ignore the less than productive qualities of the Winter Knight.


Mantles are a odd thing & I'm not entirely certain Mab has control over the nature of the Winter Knight.  From the descriptions Harry gives, logic isn't its strong suit, & isn't exactly a reflection of Mab. 

Plus, who is to say Mab had anything to do with the creation of the office.  The Winter Knight could originally be a creation of Mother Winter & might even predate Mab.  Mother Winter certainly seems like she might favor Knights who share Slate's disposition.

And frankly it sounds like the mantle pushes Harry in that direction.

[Ms Duck]

See the section where Harry's mantle gives him unhelpful advice on how to fight Fix, & how Harry points out that Slate killed the previous Summer Knight by shoving him down the stairs (thus, ignoring the mantle).  The mantle doesn't learn, it's just an unthinking bunch of occasionally helpful instinctual commands.  It is up to the Knight who holds them to choose to listen or ignore these imperatives.

Bob believed that the mantle could not be changed & from Harry's descriptions of past WKs, if it changes any, it must be a glacially slow process.  Mab spent a lot of time energy getting Harry specifically.  Maybe because she knew he was the sort whose Will, could ignore the less than productive qualities of the Winter Knight.


Mantles are a odd thing & I'm not entirely certain Mab has control over the nature of the Winter Knight.  From the descriptions Harry gives, logic isn't its strong suit, & isn't exactly a reflection of Mab. 

Plus, who is to say Mab had anything to do with the creation of the office.  The Winter Knight could originally be a creation of Mother Winter & might even predate Mab.  Mother Winter certainly seems like she might favor Knights who share Slate's disposition.

And frankly it sounds like the mantle pushes Harry in that direction.

thats the WK mantle. when i said 'nature of the mantle' I meant well.. nature of the mantle. there is a wk mantle. there is a lady manlte. therefor it is very likely there is a queen and mother manlte.. and we allready know of the archive, odin , etc, etc....

of course the wk mantle is a violent idiot. its supposed to be

[TheCuriousFan]

Bob only mentioned Halloween as a time when a mantle can undergo change in its nature.  Yes, the Winter Knight mantle can be handed off any any time of the year, but we are talking about changing the nature of the mantle & maybe permanently fusing it with the mantle of the Warden.

Depends on if that immortal mantle stasis extends to mantles held by mortals as well.

[KevinSig]

thats the WK mantle. when i said 'nature of the mantle' I meant well.. nature of the mantle. there is a wk mantle. there is a lady manlte. therefor it is very likely there is a queen and mother manlte.. and we allready know of the archive, odin , etc, etc....

of course the wk mantle is a violent idiot. its supposed to be

I don't know what you think this thread is about, but we are discussing changing the nature of Harry's mantle, there's nothing to specifically pertain to the nature of Mab's mantle.  Plus, given that Mab is considered constant as the Northern Star & I think there's a WOJ that says some things just aren't in her nature.

So, I'm fairly confused by your post, since in the context of this thread you seem to suddenly argue that the WK mantle is a constantly evolving sort of thing, which doesn't really work.

Depends on if that immortal mantle stasis extends to mantles held by mortals as well.

When Lily & Maeve are trying to talk Harry into killing Mab, they basically say that the Winter Knight is a portion of the larger Winter Mantle, that all the Queens share.  It's just a certain aspect of it.

So while a mortal is wearing the mantle, it essential is a small piece of the larger immortal one.

[Ms Duck]

I don't know what you think this thread is about, but we are discussing changing the nature of Harry's mantle, there's nothing to specifically pertain to the nature of Mab's mantle.  Plus, given that Mab is considered constant as the Northern Star & I think there's a WOJ that says some things just aren't in her nature.

So, I'm fairly confused by your post, since in the context of this thread you seem to suddenly argue that the WK mantle is a constantly evolving sort of thing, which doesn't really work.

no i said Mab's mantle almost has to be a constantly changing thing to do the job it does. ergo, its possible for a mantle to change- some of them may even be designed for it (to learn, adapt and overcome)

as mother summer implied he can change, it seems very likely the wk can as well.. how much of the wk being a violent intinctive hunter is part of its base nature, and how much of it is learned by prior WK's being that way?

surely not all of them were like that, id suspect quite a few were millitary geniuses of some kind or the other.

the idea it cant change is from Bob, and hes not allways correct.

[huangjimmy108]

thats the WK mantle. when i said 'nature of the mantle' I meant well.. nature of the mantle. there is a wk mantle. there is a lady manlte. therefor it is very likely there is a queen and mother manlte.. and we allready know of the archive, odin , etc, etc....

of course the wk mantle is a violent idiot. its supposed to be

Hah! The WK mantle is a violent idiot. Maybe spending some time with Harry would give it some brains. Not much though, Harry don't have much himself to begin with and what he have have been bang up and battered the whole series.

Anyway, did anyone think that the WK mantle works a lot like Naruto and Kyuubi?

[KevinSig]

Duck, I think I somewhat follow you now, but I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to say, or even what this thread is about.

First, all your talk of Mab's mantle seeing all possibilities & constantly reevaluating itself has nothing to do with nature.  Nature, as I define it, are hard wired imperatives that the mantle pushes on the bearer.  Mab's mantle pushes cool logic, Titania's pushes emotion.

Winter Knight, as you say, is that of a violent idiot. 

But the point of this thread, is that Harry has other mantles, & at least immortals can change a mantle on Halloween with bits & pieces like this.  So for Harry & subsequent Winter Knights, the imperative might not be that of a violent idiot.

In the case of Mab, if her nature were to be changed, she might become more emotional & not be as closely tied to the embodiment of what is Winter.  To stop always thinking so logically & embrace other ways of thought.

That kind of change would require actively tinkering with her mantle & bringing in new parts.

[lilylis]

second, is it possible for someone to be both knight of winter and the cross at the same time?

As Mother Summer says: 'anything is possible'.  I would like to think the Winter Knight could also wield a sword of the cross. After all Harry needs a sword of his own.

[Ms Duck]

Duck, I think I somewhat follow you now, but I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to say, or even what this thread is about.

First, all your talk of Mab's mantle seeing all possibilities & constantly reevaluating itself has nothing to do with nature.  Nature, as I define it, are hard wired imperatives that the mantle pushes on the bearer.  Mab's mantle pushes cool logic, Titania's pushes emotion.

Winter Knight, as you say, is that of a violent idiot. 

But the point of this thread, is that Harry has other mantles, & at least immortals can change a mantle on Halloween with bits & pieces like this.  So for Harry & subsequent Winter Knights, the imperative might not be that of a violent idiot.

In the case of Mab, if her nature were to be changed, she might become more emotional & not be as closely tied to the embodiment of what is Winter.  To stop always thinking so logically & embrace other ways of thought.

That kind of change would require actively tinkering with her mantle & bringing in new parts.

and i think youre over simplyfing things a bit:

the mantles likely have more then one purpose. (mab's for example probably does waaay more then just make her logical.)

the WK, along with making a violent idiot, also has very strong reporductive instincts wired into it where sidhe ladies are concerned.

and I doubt the 'warden of DR' is a mantle at all, frankly. A 'mantle' is in essence, i suspect, a more advanced bob. a programmed knowledge system that can be passed from host to host; some are likely far more advanced then others. While harry gains some information from sharing DR's knowledge, there doesnt seem to be any instinctive programming built into it.

what i believe Mother Summer was saying is that the mantles learn from each bearer, and Harry can choose to change his in some ways if he has enough will.

the WK mantle may be a violent idiot now, but wanna bet that by the time Harry passes it on it wont be?

[peregrine]

Where is this idea that Mab thinks always logically?  We've seen, even in the most recent book, that Mab can let her decisions be made on an emotional basis.  It's why she had Harry do the job, instead of herself.