Help with a Player's Item

[Deadmanwalking]

I really don't think satisfying the Catch for Outsiders' toughness powers should cost refresh.
Most Outsiders will have a Catch of 'Holy stuff' or something similar, meaning that any 'Holy' weapon will do the job for most of them.  Such a weapon will also satisfy the Catch for many many other creatures.
Being 'Holy' doesn't cost refresh.  The Catch of Outsiders will come up less often then a Catch of 'Holy stuff'.  Satisfying the Catch of Outsiders should not cost refresh.

Eh...it's a little unclear that holy stuff does it for all Outsiders. That said, I think the original version (-1 Refresh, satisfies the Catch, +1 damage) was about right. -2 to not even fully satisfy their Catch? Way overpriced.

So, as far as parrying attacks against other people, I think you could do that with a FP.  Also, for blocking, couldn't he just use weapons to put up a block?  I mean, you can just do that anyways, especially if the weapon allows you to parry magic.

Yeah, I'd say the current version allow that.

[Tedronai]

Eh...it's a little unclear that holy stuff does it for all Outsiders. That said, I think the original version (-1 Refresh, satisfies the Catch, +1 damage) was about right.

If we presume more disparate Catches for Outsiders, the math just gets more complicated, but it doesn't reach a substantially different conclusion.  Satisfying the Catch of a particular group is not meaningfully more powerful (if at all) than satisfying a particular type of Catch, and satisfying a particular type of Catch doesn't cost refresh.
'Satisfies the catch and inflicts +2 stress' would be more reasonable, and even that's weak for a Power.

[Deadmanwalking]

I tend to agree with you for the most part. Outsiders are just bad enough that it seems to me some cost might be reasonable...that said, satisfies the Catch and +2 damage is certainly reasonable as a -1 power, I agree.

[Theonlyspiral]

The reason I look upon satisfying the catch as a big deal is that outsiders are unknowable and alien. We don't really know what (if anything) is a reliable catch as the only person who we see meaningfully got toe to toe with them is Harry. Harry being a Star Born is a big deal in the novels. A lot of speculation on the boards seems to be that it took planning and a lot of work to create one. If you have a catch that is almost impossible to fulfill, then having a weapon the ignores the rarity and danger of acquiring the knowledge and items you need to kill it seems pretty strong.

[Deadmanwalking]

Michael also butchered them pretty easily. But then, he had a Sword of the Cross, which are definitionally everything's Catch.

But that aside, what you speak of is the reason I'm an advocate of your original ability (or one that did +2 stress instead of +1) being reasonable for a single -1...the current version is still vastly underpowered.

[mightythews]

Hey Everyone, It's me the player who came up with this item!
I'm really enjoying the feedback on this thread I thought I would add some more of the flavour i had in mind into the discussion it might help clarify things or make new ideas crop up.

This sword is powered by the shades of the family. When the wielder dies they leave behind a shade, and that shade (after returning the sword to the family, or being destroyed) joins with the sword and empowers it further. The idea I had was that the memories and skills of those shade might be partially accessible (like ectomancy) which I tried to represent in the "memories of ancestors" power. The only other thing I would like to add is that it would be nice if it had at least a little utility against things other than outsiders. I hop this adds some clarity, and can generate further discussion!

[Haru]

You could do something like "channeling the ancestors", by putting a relabeled beast change on the sword, so you could switch out your skill set for that of an ancestor, if need be.

Rereading the sotc again, I think Deadmanwalking is right, +1 against everything seems well within reach. That would be your "uses against other things".

Michael also butchered them pretty easily. But then, he had a Sword of the Cross, which are definitionally everything's Catch.

When did Michael fight outsiders?

[Deadmanwalking]

Hmm. The way I'd build this is as follows:

Akai Family Spirit Blade [-2]
Description: An unassuming Japanese Katana that has gained significant magical powers over the past several centuries.
Musts: You must be a descendant of the Akai family, and Have a High Concept related to the family Destiny.
Skills Affected: Weapons
Effects:
[-2]Memories of the Ancestors. The wielder of this sword gains +1 Weapons while wielding it in combat as their ancestors guide their hand in battle. They also receive all benefits of the Ghost Speaker power (YS p. 169) as long as they are in possession of the blade.
[+2]One Time Discount. You're not Duncan Macleod. You can't hide a Katana on your Person.
[-1]Outsider Bane. This sword serves as the catch for any supernatural toughness abilities possessed by outsiders. This weapon increases and stress it inflicts on an Outsider by 2 steps.
[-0]The Quest. This item is unbreakable as long as it is used in the service of the family destiny. If it is ever used to further the aims or ends of Outsiders it looses it's magical properties until the user redeems himself or it passes to a new member of the Akai family.
[-1]Spirit Sheath. While wielding the Family Blade you may Parry magical attacks as if they were Weapon attacks.

There, cool and useful, as well as especially potent vs. Outsiders.

[Mr. Death]

When did Michael fight outsiders?

Offscreen during Proven Guilty, when he rescues that Warden training camp.

[Deadmanwalking]

Offscreen during Proven Guilty, when he rescues that Warden training camp.

This. It's worth noting he was singularly more effective against them than Ebenezar McCoy. And didn't really find them any harder to kill than anything else he's fought. Michael's a scary guy.

[Mr. Death]

This. It's worth noting he was singularly more effective against them than Ebenezar McCoy. And didn't really find them any harder to kill than anything else he's fought. Michael's a scary guy.

That and Excalibur is a scary sword. All Creatures Are Equal Before God, and all that.

[Haru]

Ah, right. I was kind of under the assumption, that the toughness reduction from the sotc only applied to things from this side of reality. I stand corrected.

[Deadmanwalking]

That and Excalibur is a scary sword. All Creatures Are Equal Before God, and all that.

True enough. 

[Sanctaphrax]

Hmm. The way I'd build this is as follows:

Akai Family Spirit Blade [-2]
Description: An unassuming Japanese Katana that has gained significant magical powers over the past several centuries.
Musts: You must be a descendant of the Akai family, and Have a High Concept related to the family Destiny.
Skills Affected: Weapons
Effects:
[-2]Memories of the Ancestors. The wielder of this sword gains +1 Weapons while wielding it in combat as their ancestors guide their hand in battle. They also receive all benefits of the Ghost Speaker power (YS p. 169) as long as they are in possession of the blade.
[+2]One Time Discount. You're not Duncan Macleod. You can't hide a Katana on your Person.
[-1]Outsider Bane. This sword serves as the catch for any supernatural toughness abilities possessed by outsiders. This weapon increases and stress it inflicts on an Outsider by 2 steps.
[-0]The Quest. This item is unbreakable as long as it is used in the service of the family destiny. If it is ever used to further the aims or ends of Outsiders it looses it's magical properties until the user redeems himself or it passes to a new member of the Akai family.
[-1]Spirit Sheath. While wielding the Family Blade you may Parry magical attacks as if they were Weapon attacks.

There, cool and useful, as well as especially potent vs. Outsiders.

For the most part I like it.

Spirit Sheath is pretty lame compared to Footwork, though.

Outsider Bane is basically impossible to cost correctly given the totally undefined nature of Outsider Catches, but...what you have there is about as well-written as I can imagine it being.

If nobody minds, I'll clean up a couple of typos and add this to the list.

[Deadmanwalking]

For the most part I like it.

Thanks. 

Spirit Sheath is pretty lame compared to Footwork, though.

Depends on what kind of magic you're facing. If it all targets Athletics, yeah, Footwork would be better...but if some of it targets Endurance, Might, or Discipline...well, then, you've got something handy there. Hell, you can parry mental attacks with it, since it's conceptually a counterspell, parrying the magic itself.

Outsider Bane is basically impossible to cost correctly given the totally undefined nature of Outsider Catches, but...what you have there is about as well-written as I can imagine it being.

Yeah...we're still really shaky on what Outsiders actually have going defensively.

If nobody minds, I'll clean up a couple of typos and add this to the list.

I, for one, am cool with it.