Comments thread for "The Laws of Magic: Part 3 of 8"

[iago]

Part three is up -- I bumped it up to Wednesday since I realized Wednesdays would be a lot easier for me to do regularly.

http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/news/archives/2007/06/post.php

[Rel Fexive]

It's definitely one of the simpler ones... since there's likely to be no Whoops, accidentally changed you into a frog!  Didn't mean to do that!  Sorry! moments.

[iago]

It's definitely one of the simpler ones... since there's likely to be no Whoops, accidentally changed you into a frog!  Didn't mean to do that!  Sorry! moments.

That spawns an interesting question to be put to the forum, then: can you think of any grey areas where accidental transformations might occur? 

What about transformations that aren't into animal forms -- twisting someone's body (perhaps robbing them of the use of their limbs), but still leaving them a thinking person?

[13x13]

I always consider transformations exactly like magical healing. The process is so complex, and requires so much guidance, that to do it right takes a mind that humans haven't developed yet.  It requires a level of multitasking, shear intellectual horsepower, super human will, and vast magical power it is essentially inaccessible by humanity in it's current state. 

If you want to get rid of someone, and use magic why bother with transformation. It would be easier and more simple to just kill them some other way.

[Matrix Refugee (formerly Morraeon)]

It'll also put the kibosh on any god-moding Mary Sue wizards who try turning their enemies into toads or something as stoopid.

[taralon]

The only real grey area I see in this law, is what if a Wizard, say like Harry, had been teaching the Alphas to transform instead of Tera West?  Though he would not *directly* be changing their form, he would be accessory to it.  Would he then, ala Toot Toot be persecuted by Morgan for "transforming another"? 

White Night Spoiler

(click to show/hide)

There also seems to be another possible transformation, that of a Wizard into a different shape.  Textev in White Night seems to indicate it might be possible (Molly saying that he's refused to teach her how to turn into animals yet rather than just flat out saying it isn't doable).

There may be a possible grey in the area of a newly minted mage.  Say like Molly.  What if her powers had manifested themselves as her being able to change her friends into werewolf like animals and then back.  As a breaker of one of the laws, she would be subjected the same punishment she got, but through proving she had no intent to injury as happened in White Night she might have just been put under the Doom

[mikeryan]

This Law is about the most problematic of them all for me.

I'm not sure if it's mentioned explicitly, but in general the Laws seem to fit with the real world Wiccan Rede. "An' it harm none, do what thou will."

For the rest of the Laws, the harm is not only pretty obvious, but we have explicit examples from the books. We've seen what happens when you twist the will of a mortal, or what can happen when you reach beyond the Outer Gates.

This Law seems murkier to me. In Fool Moon Harry says that the harm is destruction of the personality. Bob corrects him though, saying that most personalities can survive a transformation. So how do you define harm, and if there is no harm, is it really Black Magic?

Going back to an earlier question about "accidental changes"...I don't like the idea of a spell that was not supposed to transform anyone accidentally transforming them. That has no interest for me. But we have seen that young magicians who are learning about their powers (and may be ignorant about the laws) have a kind of wish fulfillment thing going for them. So their "enemies" (school rivals, not ravening psychopaths. Usually) might find themselves with tails or weird skin diseases. Or they may feel bad that their pudgy best friend gets picked on all the time, so that friend wakes up with a Bowflex body. Or their significant other (boy or girl) wakes up to other, ahem, blessings.

Along those later lines, I can see adult wizards being paid truckloads of money for those exact same services. If the subject truly wants it, is it Black Magic? Maybe, maybe not. Good intentions didn't really help in Proven Guilty (other than getting the Doom instead of the Sword).

And didn't Harry transform him and Susan into wind (temporarily) in Storm Front?

So confusing.

[iago]

If you ask me, I think this law is as much about robbing the victim of his or her personal freedom by trapping them in a form not their own.  But it is a potential oddball in the bunch, I'll grant that.

[Rel Fexive]

That would seem to be the way it would most often come up, yes.  Makes sense; it might be easier to magic away someone's arms and legs for torture/punishment purposes than to make them into a dog, or render them horribly sightless or unable to speak... and this Law would be the one to cover these acts.

[Douglas]

This Law is about the most problematic of them all for me.

I'm not sure if it's mentioned explicitly, but in general the Laws seem to fit with the real world Wiccan Rede. "An' it harm none, do what thou will."

For the rest of the Laws, the harm is not only pretty obvious, but we have explicit examples from the books. We've seen what happens when you twist the will of a mortal, or what can happen when you reach beyond the Outer Gates.

This Law seems murkier to me. In Fool Moon Harry says that the harm is destruction of the personality. Bob corrects him though, saying that most personalities can survive a transformation. So how do you define harm, and if there is no harm, is it really Black Magic?

From Fool Moon pg. 60:

I glanced up at him.  "Transmogrification?  That's illegal, Bob.  It's one of the Laws of Magic.  If you transform someone into an animal, it destroys their personality.  You can't transform someone else without wiping out their mind.  It's practically murder."

Yeah.  Neat, huh?  But actually ,most personalities can survive the transformation.  For a while at least.  Really strong wills might manage to keep their human memories and personality locked away for several years.  But sooner or later, they're irretrievably gone, and you're left with nothing but a wolf.

Yes the personality can survive the initial transformation, but even if the transformation was done well enough to allow you to survive this is a truly cruel thing to do.  Think about weeks and months of your personality and mind bleeding away bit-by-bit.  We are talking incredibly slow torture here, even without the violation of will inherent in altering another being's fundamental nature.  How is that not harming someone?  Even assuming that the wizard performing the spell is good enough to do it and make a viable body, all it's doing is prolonging the slow decline into non-sentience.

Actually this could be a really fun thing to do to a character, if the player was up to roleplaying it.  Trying to interact with the world without the power of speech, or even proper control over the new body could be a really neat roleplaying experience.  Assuming they get back to being human eventually.

[finarvyn]

I see this law as being somewhat tricky, depending upon the style of the campaign.

Certainly, transforming someone against their will is a bad thing, the same way that trying to alter a person's thoughts against their will is a bad thing.

The grey area is this: what if a person wants to be transformed? I don't think that Harry has ever encountered such a thing, and in fact the werewolf belts from FOOL MOON give the impression that a person who is transformed may lose their sense of self. However, suppose a situation comes up where a character wants to be transformed for some reason? Perhaps the group needs a person to be able to fly to the top of a cliff to grab an item up there and a player volunteers to be turned into a large bird to accomplish the task?

I'm not saying that I would allow such an action in my Dresden campaign, but I really hate to fall back on the "sorry, but it's a rule" defense in order to dis-allow a clever action proposed by a player.

Just a thought....

[Rel Fexive]

It seems to be much like the enthral Law; sure, you can do it, but the "protect the mind" part is probably the trickiest part and subject to all the dangers that are present when you try to "nicely" mind control someone, since that is in essence what you are doing.  You can't account for everything, and there's your unconscious issues to deal with too, so most wizardly types will be unable to do it right.  You'd probably get the enthralment backlash, too, and hence lawbreaker stunts and so forth.

So there are really two components to this: the mental damage you do indirectly by forcing someone (if the subject is unwilling) into a body not their own, and the damage you do by imperfectly "protecting" their mind while doing it.  Double trouble.

[Relooc Reeb]

Ok maybe its just me but my first thought was about cosmetic changes.. is it illegal to make your girlfriend hotter? (with her permission/without?)  larger brests? smoother skin...removing scars.. whatever else but the modifications would be small to negligent in this as you are not actually changing it from what it is.. And what about changing yourself.. make yourself a little stronger.. faster.. Not inhumanly so.. but some people who dont normally work out much would probly not mind being even just in good shape. Now granted it would probly be better to use a temperary potion for the self improvments as anything other than temperary might be a slippery path down to dark magic ending with tenticals comming out of your head so you can hold your coffee as you type.

[iago]

Ok maybe its just me but my first thought was about cosmetic changes.. is it illegal to make your girlfriend hotter? (with her permission/without?)  larger brests? smoother skin...removing scars.. whatever else but the modifications would be small to negligent in this as you are not actually changing it from what it is.. And what about changing yourself.. make yourself a little stronger.. faster.. Not inhumanly so.. but some people who dont normally work out much would probly not mind being even just in good shape. Now granted it would probly be better to use a temperary potion for the self improvments as anything other than temperary might be a slippery path down to dark magic ending with tenticals comming out of your head so you can hold your coffee as you type.

I think you just came up with a *fantastic* bad guy concept there.

[Matrix Refugee (formerly Morraeon)]

Ok maybe its just me but my first thought was about cosmetic changes.. is it illegal to make your girlfriend hotter? (with her permission/without?)  larger brests? smoother skin...removing scars.. whatever else but the modifications would be small to negligent in this as you are not actually changing it from what it is.. And what about changing yourself.. make yourself a little stronger.. faster.. Not inhumanly so.. but some people who dont normally work out much would probly not mind being even just in good shape. Now granted it would probly be better to use a temperary potion for the self improvments as anything other than temperary might be a slippery path down to dark magic ending with tenticals comming out of your head so you can hold your coffee as you type.

Personally, I think it would be a bad idea at best, a breach of the Third Law at worst. A person could get hooked on the transformations, the way people get hooked on plastic surgery and have themselves worked on to the point that they ruin their looks and/or their health.