The Red Court Lives....sort of (Spoilers Changes, GS, and CD)

[TheCuriousFan]

I find it slightly disturbing that 3 of us nearly immediately posted the exact page and quotation of a random thing from the books at 12:30 on Friday night.

In my defence, for me it's 5:30 in the afternoon.

[Lord Rae]

I think if Maggie had anything it died off like the Jaguar men who were half vamps. They had lived a long long time though so when the spirit holding them up died they aged alot in a short time and died. Maggie is young and wasn't being kept alive by the predator spirit or whatever so she wasn't impacted by its removal. It's probably why she was asleep though.

[wizard nelson]

thanks madness, their reasons for saying i was wrong were wrong. so i had to debate them on the issues..

[wizard nelson]

I think if Maggie had anything it died off like the Jaguar men who were half vamps. They had lived a long long time though so when the spirit holding them up died they aged alot in a short time and died. Maggie is young and wasn't being kept alive by the predator spirit or whatever so she wasn't impacted by its removal. It's probably why she was asleep though.

ARRG! thats what i'm trying to SAY she didn't have the demon just some abnormalities... ARGG! *migraine starts up*

[Cenphx]

Wow. Im near the West coast in the US, so just assumed everyone else would be to the east of me and therefore even earlier in the a.m. I didnt even think of people on the board from places waaaaay past the east coast. How very American-centric of me. :/

[123456789blaaa]

The lulling to sleep part happens earlier in Changes when he finds Lea in his apartment. In the hardback edition its on page 107. Its chapter 15. What she actually says is that she lulls their predator spirit to sleep.

EDIT: Damn ninjas.

Lea did that ... Changes, chapter 15.

AHA! So it isn't explicitly stated to be a demon. It is their "predator spirit" (could be poetic)/Vamp part of them.

[wizard nelson]

I think if Maggie had anything it died off like the Jaguar men who were half vamps. They had lived a long long time though so when the spirit holding them up died they aged alot in a short time and died. Maggie is young and wasn't being kept alive by the predator spirit or whatever so she wasn't impacted by its removal. It's probably why she was asleep though.

the curse killed the actual 'living' hunger demon. i'm trying, rather unsuccessfully, to get my theory across that since she possessed no actual entity there was nothing to kill, she could still be special though...
edit: i'd have to look for hours but i'm certain it calls it a demon somewhere in the series when harry and susan or martin talk about it

[Cenphx]

Edit: on second thought, Im erasing my post here. I made my point clearly and theres no need to repeat it.

[wizard nelson]

Edit: on second thought, Im erasing my post here. I made my point clearly and theres no need to repeat it.

huh? never saw but oh well... still don't understand why some are confused... disagree yes... not get... no

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

While it is just possible the Eebs survived I wouldn't bet money on it.  Ignoring the effects of the death curse before Harry and Susan left the Erlking's hall (Changes p315-6):

"Screams went up from the entire helpless Red Court crew as several hundred violence-amped goblins fell on them in a wave.  I watched for a moment in sickened fascination, but turned away.  ...  Beneath the screams of the Red Court - Esmerelda's were especially piercing - a ragged chuckle ran through the hall."

On the other hand before the fight the Erlking did imply that the defeated participants would amuse his people while they lasted. (p302).

Regards

Edward

[GrandPanjandrum]

My issue here is that this theory completely discounts the actual headaches in the past.  In Turn Coat, his headaches have gotten so bad that Butters is trying to get him into an MRI machine.  In Cold Days, he says they've been growing "steadily worse" "over the past few years".  Harry certainly doesn't see this as a case of two different types of headaches, but as a continuation of the ones plaguing him. 
Ebenezar says Mavra can do one, since she has a wizard level talent.

In Turn Coat he only had one entity in there, but ever since White Knight that entity displayed free will.  As Uriel stated..."You are a soul, you have a body."  So, I'd say that the headaches since White Knight were Lash growing a soul in Harry's body.  The escalation in Cold Days (where Harry points out that he's gone all but unconcious) is a combination of Lash's new soul, and Arianna's very real residence.  You can take the "two separate ice picks" as two separate entities, or vampire fangs. 

I can't imagine Jim Butcher missing an opportunity to have what equivocates to an Angel and a Demon inside Harry's head...especially with all the important decisions that have fallen to him.  It is the stereotypical angel on one shoulder, demon on the other duking it out.  Too fun.

[Tami Seven]

From what I understand, if this "Predator Spirit" in half-Reds were the same as being a full Red, then Susan or Martian could have been sacrificed anytime.

The Sacrifice only worked because Susan fed her RC Vampire and let it take over. 'Susan' died as soon as she fed, and a brand new RC Vampire was born. At that moment of birth, she became the youngest Rampire and could affect all others.

There is no evidence that the RC's Predator Spirit infection that turns a human into a Rampire can be passed down any other way except from a RC Noble (the process of doing so isn't entirely clear). 

It is unlikely that Maggie would have inherited any of that RC Infection, if she had her first foster family would have all been dead soon after they took her in. A child would not have been able to control that. Also, when the Rampires were all killed off, it also wiped out the 'Infection' that made Half-Reds. Even if Maggie had any of that 'Infection', it would have been wiped away once Susan died.

[GrandPanjandrum]

Great theory.

I don't agree with it but it is still a great theory.  Well presented.

BTW, one of the comments here got me to thinking of the 'bursting forth' as metaphor for childbirth.

I have been having trouble figuring out why Lash would want to hurt Harry but if it is some sort of metaphysical process that she can not control and she is going to be split off from Harry (cutting the umbilical cord, so to speak) then I can see how the imagery and symbolism could fit.

I think Lash is growing a soul ever since she practiced Free Will in White Knight.  But, I think she, also, has company in there.

Your comment got me thinking about the dreams that went out into the world to pregnant women when the curse was released.  That's kind of interesting from a "conception" point of view relative to Arianna.

[madness]

Hell.

What if the original source of the Red Court (whatever the Red King had) jumped into Harry when the Red King died?

Didn't Harry lose the two minutes pretty much right as the spell was going out?

[GrandPanjandrum]

Hell.

What if the original source of the Red Court (whatever the Red King had) jumped into Harry when the Red King died?

Didn't Harry lose the two minutes pretty much right as the spell was going out?

Read #2 of the first post on this thread...concerning the black out.