Sponsor Debt for Temporary Powers?

[Deadmanwalking]

It might seem that way but I promise it isn't. I'm reminded of a recent thread on RPGnet, which I think shows the trouble that Thaumaturgy's vagueness gives people.

Interesting. I'll give that a more in-depth look when I have some time.

I'm thinking more about the people who think Evocation attacks are broken and try to balance them with the First Law.

Ah, okay, gotcha.

[Deadmanwalking]

Interesting. I'll give that a more in-depth look when I have some time.

And having done this: Huh? I see a lot of people who like FATE, a few who don't , and one person commenting that the way Thaumaturgy works put Wizards at center-stage (potentially true), and one guy right at the end who thought the magic system was too complicated and slowed down play (kind of the opposite of the problem we're discussing). And you, of course.

None of those are at all the problem we've been discussing. And it was three people (including you) out of dozens.

[Sanctaphrax]

In retrospect, just linking you to the thread was a mistake. There were a few specific posts I had in mind.

I was thinking about the people who said that Wizards own centre stage and about the people talking about how it's because GMs make magic too easy.

Plus the guy who talked about how confusing the spell system is.

If Thaumaturgy wasn't so bloody vague, you wouldn't get this sort of thing.

[Deadmanwalking]

I guess. That's still really only two or three people, though.

[JDK002]

I have to side with sanct on this.  The first time my group did a major thaum ritual I let them get by way too easy.  Mostly because their aren't really any clear guidelines on how to model them.  I felt this despite the fact that I read that section of YS 2 or 3 times. 

It was such a mess that since then my group has actually avoided doing large rituals ever since.  No one in the group can seem to come to a difinitive conclusion on them.

[UmbraLux]

Declarations, which power thaumaturgy from a mechanical point of view, are intended to be regulated by the group.  So are symbolic links.  As long as those are looked at skeptically, thaumaturgy works reasonably well*.  On the other hand, overly permissive aspects and links make it too easy and easily abused.

But the real issue isn't thaumaturgy.  Thaumaturgy is just a way of stacking aspects to accomplish an end...and you can stack aspects for any skill.  You can even throw half a dozen declarations at a skill if allowed...which would make skills just as problematic.

*As long as you don't make it a caster only scene which detracts from everyone else.

[Deadmanwalking]

Basically, what UmbraLux said. Stealth, for example, can easily stack up enough Aspects to kill anyone. Lore ditto to do almost anything to anything supernatural. Thaumaturgy can do the same on almost any category of action, sure, but it's not the Thaumaturgy rules per se that allow this behavior.

[Sanctaphrax]

The problem of conflicting expectations can show up outside of Thaumaturgy, but it's generally less severe. Thaumaturgy sets the expectation of stacking Aspects, which means you have to determine how much of that is okay.

In other situations it's easier to keep it under control because there's no pre-established expectation.

[JDK002]

There is also only so many ways you can recolor stealth declairations for "I silently sneak up behind him, and put a knife in his heart".  Thaum doesnt really have that soft cap to where you just run out of ways to color declairations.

Though using the notion that all thaum is is stacking declairations for one big effect or attack probably goes a long way to prevent confusion between players.  When they know is no different than making a normal declairation for effect, just on a much larger scale.  Though that still doesn't help with the vauge modeling of said spell, just how the resolution works.

[UmbraLux]

There is also only so many ways you can recolor stealth declairations for "I silently sneak up behind him, and put a knife in his heart".  Thaum doesnt really have that soft cap to where you just run out of ways to color declairations.

This is where that difference in expectations trips people up...your declarations don't need to be from the skill you're using!  Using your stealth example, we could use a Resource declaration of 'I bought a ninja suit'; one from Athletics saying 'I've climbed through the trees to drop from above'; Discipline of 'held very still' with Endurance of 'for an extended period of time'...etc.  I probably wouldn't ever use a Stealth declaration for a Stealth roll...doesn't make sense to gain synergy from itself.  Rolled declarations are all about that synergy...how you claim to have set yourself up for the current action. 

With aspect creation fitting the situation is what matters...the skill is just setting your situation's expectations.  Thaumaturgy simply broadens the expectations because "it's FM". 

[JDK002]

This is where that difference in expectations trips people up...your declarations don't need to be from the skill you're using!  Using your stealth example, we could use a Resource declaration of 'I bought a ninja suit'; one from Athletics saying 'I've climbed through the trees to drop from above'; Discipline of 'held very still' with Endurance of 'for an extended period of time'...etc.  I probably wouldn't ever use a Stealth declaration for a Stealth roll...doesn't make sense to gain synergy from itself.  Rolled declarations are all about that synergy...how you claim to have set yourself up for the current action. 

With aspect creation fitting the situation is what matters...the skill is just setting your situation's expectations.  Thaumaturgy simply broadens the expectations because "it's FM".

Which is an excellent use of the game mechanics.  The problem is this: imagine that to succeed in that stealth action you needed 30 shifts.  Even with a 5 stealth and a roll of +4 you would still need to make 11 successful declairations (barring spending fate points) to succeed.  Sounds kind of rediculous IMO.  The books seem to suggest that not only is that perfectly acceptable, but that it should be the norm for thaumaturgy.

I almost feel that treating major rituals as a side quest, making the players role play obtaining the important components solves much of the problem.  It circumvents convoluted declairation stacking.

[UmbraLux]

Thinking back to my Shadowrun days, I can think of a few situations where 30+ shifts in a Stealth scene would be appropriate.  It also works for other skills like Firearms.

(click to show/hide)

Particularly the kill shot at the end of Changes.

I'd suggest anything of those magnitudes should have its own scene, not just thaumaturgy.  This is also one issue I think has been fixed with FATE Core. 

[Haru]

Which is an excellent use of the game mechanics.  The problem is this: imagine that to succeed in that stealth action you needed 30 shifts.  Even with a 5 stealth and a roll of +4 you would still need to make 11 successful declairations (barring spending fate points) to succeed.  Sounds kind of rediculous IMO.  The books seem to suggest that not only is that perfectly acceptable, but that it should be the norm for thaumaturgy.

I don't think so. It all depends on how you look at a specific ritual.
For example, look at the chauncy summoning. You could do that as a full blown summoning ritual with a barrier and everything that comes with that. The numbers will be pretty high there, as with most summonings, I think. But if you treat this as a skill replacement for contacts or scholarship (asking someone for information or gathering the information yourself), the numbers will drop to a reasonable level.
And I think you can do so with a lot of things. Look at a ritual from the result end, not the means end. Zombie rising for example could be done as a simple resources or contacts replacement to hire some supernatural thugs. The restrictions will then become a matter of compels on the wizards way to use magic. A necromancer would be able to do so with ease, while your average wizard would neither know how to do it, nor would he have the guts to try.

Of course, some higher numbers will still be there, but it will reduce the really big ones to very rare occasions.
I've had a ritual once, where the player wanted to catch a group of vampire thugs in a thick of vines. He wanted to put up a block of 11 shifts stretched over 1 zone and he wanted to be able to control it better (mainly to let his friends pass), and I made that 2 extra shifts. That meant he needed 15 shifts, 5 of which were provided by his lore. He had brought in special seeds, earth and water already, to mark the places where the vines should spawn in the staircase. We then agreed, that it would be fitting, if he completed the 4 missing shifts by bringing in fire and air as well, to complete the classic circle of 5 elements. Air was easy, a balloon filled with air from his own lungs. Fire took him a while, but then he came up with a brilliant representation: the fire needed for plants to grow is the sun. He couldn't get actual sunlight, so he got a sunflower. Those were all very quick and easy declarations, it took him about an hour to get the ingredients needed. The player first thought, that he could make the spell more powerful, if those ingredients were that easy to get, but we agreed, that the spell is pretty much complete as it is, there would not be much more room to reasonably fit anything else in there. And the spell worked and caught all those naughty vampires rather nicely.

[Sanctaphrax]

I almost feel that treating major rituals as a side quest, making the players role play obtaining the important components solves much of the problem.  It circumvents convoluted declairation stacking.

Y'know, I wish there was a "side quest" option for building Thaumaturgy complexity. The Declaration guidelines suggest that the Declarations should be described as mini-scenes, but that's just not the same.

Ah well. Easy to houserule.

And I think you can do so with a lot of things. Look at a ritual from the result end, not the means end. Zombie rising for example could be done as a simple resources or contacts replacement to hire some supernatural thugs.

I don't think that's a good idea. I'm no fan of the canonical summoning rules (I rewrote them for a reason) but what you suggest wouldn't work too well.

The first problem is that neither Contacts nor Resources allows you to hire people. Contacts lets you find people and Resources lets you pay them, but there's no trapping that lets you just hire people with one roll. Hiring isn't that easy, unless you have a homebrew stunt or something.

The second problem is that Resources scaling is often too good for Thaumaturgy. Look at what you can do with a Resources roll. Difficulty 8 gets you an island. And if a Lore 5 Wizard invests three focus slots, they can do 8 shifts casually.

[Haru]

Well then, make it both, a contacts and a resources roll, if you like. Resources let's you buy things, mercenaries sell their services. I think that makes it a straight resources roll. If you don't know someone, you'll need contacts first, to find someone you'd want to hire. Other skills (presence for example) could also work for the summoning.
But resources is a fairly abstract thing in this game, and is therefore subject to skewed scaling. You'll still need a body to reanimate in the first place, and it is always possible that your "money" was not well spent, if the body and matching spirit is not all that powerful. Also remember, that you need a drum to keep them under control, and while a book drumming against your leg might be enough for two or three zombies, I think you'll need a larger one to control more of them (or be that much better at necromancy). That can all be done by compels very easily.

Not to dismiss your efforts, on the contrary, I admire them, but I don't really like those detailed summoning rules. To me the bargaining and uncertainty of a summoning belong very much to the setting, and an easy summoning rule like that can do that pretty good. The detailed summoning rules are great for building a golem or something like it, a magical robot, if you will. But even there, I would probably just make it a craftsmanship replacement or something similar. If you want to find just the right demon, you'd have to randomly summon a few of them until you found someone that matched what you are looking for. Much like if you where to go through a few applicants for a job. But on a zombie, you take the first one that is there in the flesh. Literally.