Sponsor Debt for Temporary Powers?

[nick012000]

Can you take Sponsor Debt to temporarily gain supernatural powers? For instance, if you've got Unseelie Magic, could you use its predatory/possessive aspects to turn yourself into a weredragon or werewolf until the next noon, and then take Sponsor Debt equal to the Refresh Cost of the powers you gain, instead of paying Fate Points like normal?

[Tedronai]

You don't even need the pre-established sponsor to be able to do this.

[nick012000]

You don't even need the pre-established sponsor to be able to do this.

*checks*
Huh, you're right. I suppose my next question is, if you perform a thaumaturgy ritual to grant yourself extra powers, do the Fate points/points of sponsor Debt you spend on Aspects to power the thaumaturgy count towards the cost of acquiring those powers? After all, it's entirely possible for non-spellcasters to spontaneously acquire powers just by spending Fate Points, with a decent justification (like changelings sliding more towards their faerie side).

[Tedronai]

The thaumaturgical ritual is what you're using to supply the narrative justification.  Expenditures made to do that cannot also be used to do anything else.  If you want to get those temporary powers more cheaply, you'll have to find some other way to acquire that narrative justification (and thus expend your efforts in that uncertain direction, instead).

[Deadmanwalking]

The Thaumaturgy ritual only needs to be Complexity 4 or 5 (plus some Duration, potentially...though that gets expensive quick, since the Temporary Powers rules are per scene). After that, any Aspects you get for it can be applied to paying for any powers granted. As can normal FP or Sponsor Debt.

None of this is allowed without the ritual, though. so, as a rule, no doing it in the midst of combat (though Seelie Magic might allow that, what with doing Biomancy at evocation speeds).

[Sanctaphrax]

After that, any Aspects you get for it can be applied to paying for any powers granted.

I was going to say this in the other thread, but...I'm not so sure about that. The temporary Powers rules say that you have to spend Fate Points, not tags. Page 283 strongly implies that you can use tags, but...I hesitate to take that implication as a statement because a tag is nowhere near equal in value to a Fate Point.

[Haru]

I was going to say this in the other thread, but...I'm not so sure about that. The temporary Powers rules say that you have to spend Fate Points, not tags. Page 283 strongly implies that you can use tags, but...I hesitate to take that implication as a statement because a tag is nowhere near equal in value to a Fate Point.

I concur, you can use tags to do your ritual, but for taking powers, you'll have to use fate points. And they always last one scene, regardless of how much shifts you put into duration in the ritual. Of course you can have your spell last longer and use it as justification on multiple accounts, but you'll have to spend the whole amount of fate points for the temporary powers you want for each scene you want to use them.

You could even have the effect linger in the narrative. For example a spell that gives you wings, you spend one fate point in the first scene to use them, in the next scene you say "well, I think I pulled a wing muscle, I better keep off them for the time being", but still have the wings on your back, and in the next scene you spend another fate point and use them again.

[Deadmanwalking]

Huh. Guess this has been lost to time. I remember because I'm the one who got the official ruling, but as proof, well, link:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17367.msg784726.html#msg784726

There. It would've been clearer, but space was an issue. You can use Tags acquired via Thaumaturgy to pay for such things. Period.

Other Tags...probably not. I'm not sure how you'd even justify it.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't do the whole Word Of God thing. I take Fred's opinion seriously, but so far as I'm concerned the rules are what the books say.

Mostly because I dislike the ideas of having the rules change on me and having to search the net to work out what the rules are.

[Deadmanwalking]

I don't do the whole Word Of God thing. I take Fred's opinion seriously, but so far as I'm concerned the rules are what the books say.

Mostly because I dislike the ideas of having the rules change on me and having to search the net to work out what the rules are.

As noted previously, it's in the book. That just clarifies what the slightly unclear wording there means.

[Haru]

If you follow that line of reasoning, you could get a "laser sight" and tag it for a guns stunt that grants you +1 on every gun attack done with the laser sight in that scene. Which you could do with a whole lot of stuff, and suddenly a high resources skill can replace almost any stunt in the book.

I think it is a cool thing to look at some things differently, in order to reduce their costs (like treating turning into an eagle for surveillance purposes is just the narrative of a divination spell, not actually a transformation, and therefore doesn't need fate points for the powers. But if you allow tags to grant temporary powers, you kind of cheapen them, I think. Fate points are good for that. Debt as well (sometimes even better).

[Deadmanwalking]

If you follow that line of reasoning, you could get a "laser sight" and tag it for a guns stunt that grants you +1 on every gun attack done with the laser sight in that scene. Which you could do with a whole lot of stuff, and suddenly a high resources skill can replace almost any stunt in the book.

If you consider those viable sources for Powers. I guess. I wouldn't allow them with a FP, would you? No? Then why would you with Tags? There's a logical disconnect between "Tags can pay for Temporary Powers if you have some way of getting said powers" (which is what I'm saying) and "Any Tag can give you temporary powers" (which is the issue in this example). I mean, you wouldn't allow someone to spend 2 FP and suddenly have Inhuman Strength without a magical justification would you? I sure wouldn't. So why would you with two Endurance or Might based tags, even if Tags are allowed?

Also, as written, it's explicit only to Thaumaturgy.

I think it is a cool thing to look at some things differently, in order to reduce their costs (like treating turning into an eagle for surveillance purposes is just the narrative of a divination spell, not actually a transformation, and therefore doesn't need fate points for the powers. But if you allow tags to grant temporary powers, you kind of cheapen them, I think. Fate points are good for that. Debt as well (sometimes even better).

Again, it's in the book that you can do this with appropriate Thaumaturgy. You don't like it, that's completely cool, but also a House Rule. Which is fine, but something you need to be aware of when giving advice to others.

[Haru]

I do allow buying stunts as temporary powers, yes. Within reason, of course, but I allow it.

I have always read it so that thaumaturgy is only your admission ticket, but you'll still have to buy the powers for fate points.

Generally, I like people committing to their powers, and this seems to propose the opposite. On the other hand, if someone wants to buy a temporary power/stunt more than once, I tend to make them take it for full anyway, since their character is obviously tending towards that direction.

Hmm... Either of the two, I guess, would be ok with me. Otherwise you are basically giving the wizard an unlimited set of modular abilities for free. Which is the power I would give him instead of thaumaturgy, if his whole concept revolves around transforming himself over and over, anyway.

[Deadmanwalking]

Well, the issue with shapechanging using Tags with Thaumaturgy is that that's an immensely time consuming thing to do. Like, hours or days, not minutes (for anything beyond a couple or three tags anyway). And really only lasts a scene or so free of charge since the FP costs are only paid by said Tags for one scene. It's something you do with a very specific purpose in mind, and only if you have a lot of spare time. How often is that the case, really? Harry certainly lacks said time for the most part. And you can't give any of this to anyone else without violating the 2nd Law.

And yeah, if you're doing it all the time, or want combat shapeshifting ala Listens-to-Wind, yeah, you should grab Modular Abilities...but part of the point of Thaumaturgy is that it can do just about anything if you give it enough time. Turning into an animal or being invincible for a scene are definitely things a big ritual can pull off...and not necessarily ones that should cost an FP if you've put in enough prep.

And again, if you don't like that, that's fine, but it's right there in the rules, so removing it's a house rule. A valid one, but one you should be aware of for purposes of giving advice to others.

[nick012000]

So, let me give you an example of what I meant, using a character I've written up but not played. He wants to turn himself into a were-dragon, enchanting a necklace to give him the power to transform. Mechanically, this is Item of Power [+2], Beast Form [-1], Echoes of the Beast [-1], and Human Form [+1] affecting Wings [-1] and Claws [-1], for a total Refresh cost of [-1]. He's already got Unseelie Magic to use for the breath weapon, and Inhuman Strength/Toughness, so he doesn't include either of those in the ritual.

So, setting up the ritual, he Invokes his High Concept (Nerdy Winter Knight) for the raw power to power the ritual, and his Trouble (Mantle of a Monster) to give him the predatory instincts to use his new form properly. He then uses his Scholarship to make three Declarations: I Have A Degree In Aviation Technology, to work out how to get the thing flying properly; The Mind Of An Engineer, to reflect his past training with mechanical engineering to work out back-of-the-envelope calculations on how the basic mechanics of how its limbs and whatnot would work; and I've Read A Lot Of Wikipedia, for the biological knowledge to make sure it wouldn't just keel over and die on him.

This is a total of five Aspects invoked/tagged, for a total of five Fate Point-equivalents; so the enchantment on the necklace would last for five scenes or the next noon, whichever came first, right?