Pancake Universe

[Second Aristh]

Yay for pancakes and covering spaces
But you did lose me with the jello

[Ms Duck]

What did she say?

that magical energy was conserved, as per physics.. it could niether be created or destroyed.

i suspect that when people metabolize food, they release some 'magica' in the way of felelings or faith but conatin most of it as a 'reserve' and thats what the soul is made of.

[peregrine]

Matter has a lot of energy, it's just mostly bound up in being physical.  When we release that energy, or even a fraction of it, we get nuclear blasts.  I would argue that soul energy is a similar thing.

Especially since conservation of energy is still in effect, bringing things from Outside just stops the equation from being a closed system, in the same way as fueling a car, or the sun radiating on a photocell.

I do question your numbers about Mab and her power levels though.  We saw her bring snow to Chicago out of season, but that took a LOT out of her, and while it's large in relation to things like your average vegetable garden, it's still small in relation to actual weather, like cold fronts, hurricanes, and so on.

(also, technically that's the ability to control weather, not climate.  Weather is snow, rain, clouds; climate is temperate, desert, arctic, subtropical, etc...  Pedantry ho!)

We saw her and Titania start moving massive air fronts, but I don't know if we have any way of determining what power was involved with that, it could have been a pebble=landslide thing.  Wheras the snow was out of season, and more likely to require a more brute force application.

[TheCuriousFan]

insane theory 1:: the conservation of energy is not respected  .

Of course it isn't. The prisoners under Demonreach oozing energy without any way of there own to refuel kind of indicates that (unless it turns out that the older prisoners are basically powerless due to oozing power for so long) it isn't an absolute.

I do question your numbers about Mab and her power levels though.  We saw her bring snow to Chicago out of season, but that took a LOT out of her, and while it's large in relation to things like your average vegetable garden, it's still small in relation to actual weather, like cold fronts, hurricanes, and so on.

Wasn't it the being in the mortal world out of season that took a lot out of her rather than the weather changing?

[Ms Duck]

Matter has a lot of energy, it's just mostly bound up in being physical.  When we release that energy, or even a fraction of it, we get nuclear blasts.  I would argue that soul energy is a similar thing.

Especially since conservation of energy is still in effect, bringing things from Outside just stops the equation from being a closed system, in the same way as fueling a car, or the sun radiating on a photocell.

I do question your numbers about Mab and her power levels though.  We saw her bring snow to Chicago out of season, but that took a LOT out of her, and while it's large in relation to things like your average vegetable garden, it's still small in relation to actual weather, like cold fronts, hurricanes, and so on.

(also, technically that's the ability to control weather, not climate.  Weather is snow, rain, clouds; climate is temperate, desert, arctic, subtropical, etc...  Pedantry ho!)

We saw her and Titania start moving massive air fronts, but I don't know if we have any way of determining what power was involved with that, it could have been a pebble=landslide thing.  Wheras the snow was out of season, and more likely to require a more brute force application.

my numbers for mab are based on the idea that she covered all of the chicago region in snow in the middle of summer. that requires an enormous amount of power- more I figure, then contained in a similar storm during winter. so if my numbers off, its on the conservative side. The figure is from a governemnt website esstimating the ammount of power, per second , contained in a major blizzard.

[Ms Duck]

as to soul energy being relased by the destruction of matter.. its possible, but im not aware of people glowing light blue lately.

my theory is based upon the idea that:

Magic comes from living things
the energy for life comes from the sun

if a being has more energy than can be explained by solar output, then obviusly they have soem other source. th easiest explanation for this is the (largely proven) existance of other worlds to draw on.

 

[Orbweaver]

as to soul energy being relased by the destruction of matter.. its possible, but im not aware of people glowing light blue lately.

my theory is based upon the idea that:

Magic comes from living things
the energy for life comes from the sun

if a being has more energy than can be explained by solar output, then obviusly they have soem other source. th easiest explanation for this is the (largely proven) existance of other worlds to draw on.

 

Mmm. Bob stated that Uriel is made of nothing but soul- and via a WOJ, he can obliterate planets just by thinking about it.

I think there is most definitely evidence that Souls are either (a) their own source of energy, or (b) their own material, from which energy can then be derived. The Darkhallow and most necromantic acts would be indicative of B, although (a) is also possible as Harry wound up 'discorporated' thanks to Eternal Silence in Ghost Story. Souls can be affected by things like time, other energies (Corpsetaker vs. Harry), will, and a lot of other 'primal' forces.

Harry danced around the subject of what would happen if he threw a punch with all his heart, soul, and mind behind it against the Skinwalker in Turn Coat. It's possible that by entwining Sacrificial energy with that derived from his soul, something on the level of God's son dying on the cross would have come charging out at Shaggy that night. And/or obliterated the island along with everything in Chicago, but again, Jim couldn't have Harry dead until the next book, so we missed out.

Overall, Duckie, do you think souls are their own form of energy- or that they're made of something, from which energy is derived? Or both?

[Ms Duck]

I think Uriel is the Wg's agent, and can draw on Wg's power just like Harry can draw on Mabs'.. or Murphy can draw on Uriel's

 

[peregrine]

I wasn't saying that soulpower is directly connected to converting matter into energy, but metaphorically speaking.

[Ms Duck]

I wasn't saying that soulpower is directly connected to converting matter into energy, but metaphorically speaking.

okies.

thing is, im running on the idea of 'there aint no such thing as a free lunch'- which emans the power has to come from someplace. say Uriel is amde of pure soul stuff, and its very good at storing power. but who made him? the white god? and where does the wg get the power form?

at some point, you need a source

the source for the powe rof life on earth is the sun.

 

[knnn]

I've pointed this out before, but one BIG flaw in this argument is that you are assuming "brute force" to destroy things.  In fact, using brute force is generally the most inefficient way to destroy things.  Consider that nearly every time we've seen how something happens in the DV, it's always using the right leverage. 

- Think about how much gravity Harry would need to generate to cause a building to fall down -- It's immense (you need to at least double the gravity of the Earth.  That's 10^26 right there).  So of course, he doesn't create the Gravity from scratch.  Instead he moves it around, concentrating it.  What's that?  Can't be done using normal physics.  Magic.

- Similarly think of Tunguska.  The amount of energy released was immense.  Megaton bomb level.  This doesn't however mean that Ebenezer has "nuclear bomb level power".  All Ebenezer really needed to do was to nudge an asteroid a little out of its path-- similar to Casaverde.  Ditto for Krakatoa - there's already pressure there, you merely need to encourage it a bit.

- Think of all the times Harry moves energy around -- he's a fulcrum, not a power source.  Why are you assuming that Mab is any different.
"Mab can create a hurricane".  Ever hear of the Butterfly Effect?  Mab is nigh-omniscient.  Surely she knows where exactly she needs to flap her wings. 

- Ditto about "destroying planets".   Archimedes once said "Give me a place to stand on, and I will move the Earth."  Does this mean he was more powerful than Mab?  Of course not, it means that he knew how to use leverage (literally).  Destroying a planet is actually relatively easy, especially if you got tons of magic tricks to get around the pesky Physics, and doubly so if you've got the power to totally ignore (WoJ that powerful beings can remake reality around them).  Harry concentrated gravity in the radius of a parking lot.  Make your circle 10 times bigger, and you've concentrated enough gravity to create a black hole.  Poof to the planet. 

- Heck, why go with small stuff.  What if an archangel simply has the power to change one of the constants of the universe?  Negate the Strong Force for a split second, and all your atoms split up into component part.  Poof to Universe.  No need to brute force it.  That's without resorting into clever magic backdoors. 


-----

Basically, measuring the power of someone by the stuff they can destroy and then assuming they must have used brute force and strictly "real world physics" to do it is at best a flawed overestimate.

[madness]

You do have to start somewhere though.

[Ms Duck]

I've pointed this out before, but one BIG flaw in this argument is that you are assuming "brute force" to destroy things.  In fact, using brute force is generally the most inefficient way to destroy things.  Consider that nearly every time we've seen how something happens in the DV, it's always using the right leverage. 

- Think about how much gravity Harry would need to generate to cause a building to fall down -- It's immense (you need to at least double the gravity of the Earth.  That's 10^26 right there).  So of course, he doesn't create the Gravity from scratch.  Instead he moves it around, concentrating it.  What's that?  Can't be done using normal physics.  Magic.

- Similarly think of Tunguska.  The amount of energy released was immense.  Megaton bomb level.  This doesn't however mean that Ebenezer has "nuclear bomb level power".  All Ebenezer really needed to do was to nudge an asteroid a little out of its path-- similar to Casaverde.  Ditto for Krakatoa - there's already pressure there, you merely need to encourage it a bit.

- Think of all the times Harry moves energy around -- he's a fulcrum, not a power source.  Why are you assuming that Mab is any different.
"Mab can create a hurricane".  Ever hear of the Butterfly Effect?  Mab is nigh-omniscient.  Surely she knows where exactly she needs to flap her wings. 

- Ditto about "destroying planets".   Archimedes once said "Give me a place to stand on, and I will move the Earth."  Does this mean he was more powerful than Mab?  Of course not, it means that he knew how to use leverage (literally).  Destroying a planet is actually relatively easy, especially if you got tons of magic tricks to get around the pesky Physics, and doubly so if you've got the power to totally ignore (WoJ that powerful beings can remake reality around them).  Harry concentrated gravity in the radius of a parking lot.  Make your circle 10 times bigger, and you've concentrated enough gravity to create a black hole.  Poof to the planet. 

- Heck, why go with small stuff.  What if an archangel simply has the power to change one of the constants of the universe?  Negate the Strong Force for a split second, and all your atoms split up into component part.  Poof to Universe.  No need to brute force it.  That's without resorting into clever magic backdoors. 


-----

Basically, measuring the power of someone by the stuff they can destroy and then assuming they must have used brute force and strictly "real world physics" to do it is at best a flawed overestimate.

the power level for harry is equivalent to an artillery shell. im moderatley confident he can do that.

I dont remeber what i based eb on, but its simmilar... it may be based on a small earthquake, which he has caused, without dropping rocks. On the list of major disasters he caused was an earthquake in the midwest. 

and no ammount of butterfly farts can make a blizzard in chciago in the summer. its simply impossible. you have to change the temperature of an enormous amount of air- and hold it against pressure forces- for months from the description. ill say it again, the figure for Mab is on the low side. its very conservative.

a domino type chaos effect assumes that the forces already exist, but are kept in balance by opposing forces. for example, planting the small explosive that triggers the collapse that causes the volcano. In the case of the blizzard in chicago, there are no such forces present. you cant cause a blizzard in summer by leaving your refrigerator door open. its simply far too much energy required.

to put it in persepective, It doesnt matter how many dominoes you have lined up. the last one will not topple over the great pyramid..much less lift it 10,000 feet in the air and hold it here, which is what Mab did.

 

[Ms Duck]

Ok, lets recalulate what Mab did another way:

Ye old:

PV/(nr)=T

Now P in this case has to be mainatined constant by soem force, or the cold air will simply draw in warm air and the effect will be spread all over the conintent instead of focused on chicago. as the volume is constant ( the air over the state) we can roughly assume Mab is , in effect, adding mass.

Mab can do this by moving 'potential mass' aka ectoplasm from the NN to earth and holding it stable. so, how much does she have to add?

well looking at the temperatures averages for chicago, she has to change it by about -28 c.

hmm, not too bad, right?

average pressure is 768.9 mm.. not too bad

volume of the air over chicago is..er.. lets see, the metro area is around 28,000 KM^2, and air depth is around 8.5 Km, giving us a box of around 238,000 cubic KM

giving us a constant of around 182,998,200

( i think, its been a long time since ive done this sort of stuff)

ok, divide that by our degree of change and solve for..6,535,600 grams of matter created. and held stable. for months.

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehgawd. and thats the easy way, assuming you can move matter from the NN.


as an alternative, take that volume of air in KM^3, multiply by the known mass of air at 20c, then caluclate it in grams. assume 1 joule of energy for each gram of air.. per degree ( 28).

uuuughhh thats worse.

[TheCuriousFan]

Harry concentrated gravity in the radius of a parking lot.  Make your circle 10 times bigger, and you've concentrated enough gravity to create a black hole.  Poof to the planet. 

Wait, really?