[CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner

[Elegast]

Elegast,

I'm with you on nearly every piece of this, but I had a different take on the Blackstaff. 

My mind took:
MW's missing walking stick,
WOJ on the Blackstaff preventing insanity,
Outsiders/Nemesis' tendency to cause insanity,
Winter's current purpose (defending against Outsiders), and
[I forgot who]'s theory that the Laws of Magic exist to prevent Outsiders from gaining influence...

...and cooked up the FrankenWAG^TM that the Blackstaff is specifically a defense against Outsiders' ability to exploit openings made by violations of the Laws of Magic (among other things). 

That's... a really great idea! And it made me realize something that should have been obvious: if Knnn's theory that that the Laws of Magic exist to prevent Outsiders from gaining influence, then Harry, who has a special immunity to Outsider mental attacks, may be able to violate the Laws without becoming mad! A living Blackstaff!

If this is the case, I doubt anyone on the WC knows MW's walking stick's true purpose (i.e. allowing Death itself to walk freely among the Outsiders without being vulnerable to their corruption), save maybe for Rashid.  If Rashid had ever confronted Eb about returning the Blackstaff, that could explain the apparent breakdown in trust between them that Eb refers to in PG*.

Possible, but I don't think so: Rashid was already alive (he took down the mad Arab around 700 AD) when the WC stole the Blackstaff (1065 AD). He could have objected far sooner. I think that the Gatekeeper suspected Eb to be infected when he came up with his grey council conspiration. In TC he clearly thinks that Harry may be infected, and he uses his eye to check. Eb knows about Rashid's suspicions, that why he asks Harry if the Gatekeeper is on their side.

*Also, in a rare double-whammy post, I don't believe that Eb created the Grey Council sometime between PG and TC in response to his conversation with Harry at the end of PG, as others have posted elsewhere.  At the very beginning of PG, Eb tells Harry he's already begun organizing a group of people he trusts- I think the GC predates Harry telling Eb about the BC theory.

Ah. I had never thought of it, but you're probably right. It was used as a way to justify Mab's actions in PG, now that we know Molly's fate it's no longer necessary.

Lastly, if Mother Winter is Death, does that make Mother Summer Taxes?

 

[jyn8462]

I don't think MS is Death, not really she might be part of the aspect of death for mortals, or she could be a goddess (or as near as a pure force of nature can be) of death like the Fate was, but I'm not convinced she's Death. I mean if she was wouldn't she have to move around a lot? She lost her walking stick but that hasn't harmed her purpose at all, nor limited her from it.

Though a fun fact the stories (IIRC) of the fates in Norse Myth were they were all blind and the three of them shared one eye given/taken/bargained from Odin. Which would be another link to winter for Odin. He and MS could have had a fight and well....cleaver...though you'd think it would be on display somewhere in the cottage...

[Elegast]

I don't think MS is Death, not really she might be part of the aspect of death for mortals, or she could be a goddess (or as near as a pure force of nature can be) of death like the Fate was, but I'm not convinced she's Death. I mean if she was wouldn't she have to move around a lot?

I don't think so. She probably has intellectus for all matters related to death, so in a sense she's there, but no need to come in person. Arthropos (one of her name), did her job with her shears without leaving her home.

[Elegast]

Just wanted to quote this post, which may solve the 'our' problem, and seems to be the first saying Death=MW:

I also have to agree with the Gaia hypothesis. Having the Summer Lady as Clothos would unbalance Summer and Winter.

Gaia has two sides--light and dark, life and death. Or, as Ian Anderson sings (slightly adjusted as necessary for this case), "he who made kittens put snakes in the grass."

[TheCuriousFan]

That's... a really great idea! And it made me realize something that should have been obvious: if Knnn's theory that that the Laws of Magic exist to prevent Outsiders from gaining influence, then Harry, who has a special immunity to Outsider mental attacks, may be able to violate the Laws without becoming mad! A living Blackstaff!

One problem, he apparently had problems controlling himself like he does now when he had just killed Justin, so not completely avoiding the consequences.

[kalinowt]

Just noticed while re-reading Dead Beat that Grevane's staff in the final Darkhollow scene is the exact same description as Ebenezer's (pg 408 in soft cover edition just after Ramirez screams "Look! Look there!") Probably just a coincidence, but interesting. Any speculations?

[Rasins]

I don't think MS is Death, not really she might be part of the aspect of death for mortals, or she could be a goddess (or as near as a pure force of nature can be) of death like the Fate was, but I'm not convinced she's Death. I mean if she was wouldn't she have to move around a lot? She lost her walking stick but that hasn't harmed her purpose at all, nor limited her from it.

Though a fun fact the stories (IIRC) of the fates in Norse Myth were they were all blind and the three of them shared one eye given/taken/bargained from Odin. Which would be another link to winter for Odin. He and MS could have had a fight and well....cleaver...though you'd think it would be on display somewhere in the cottage...

I believe that, like Mab not having to do anything directly to make winter come, death doesn't have to go everywhere for "normal" deaths.  But when special deaths occur, she may need to move about. 

Here's a thought.  The BAT is kicked off by giving MW her walking stick back and now death is walking the land, procuring a horse, and dun-dun-dun ... end of the world.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Possible, but I don't think so: Rashid was already alive (he took down the mad Arab around 700 AD) when the WC stole the Blackstaff (1065 AD).

What's the reference for that latter date ?  Titania not having spoken to Mab since before the Battle of Hastings (1066) might well connect, there.

[wyltok]

What's the reference for that latter date ?  Titania not having spoken to Mab since before the Battle of Hastings (1066) might well connect, there.

The reference is a WoJ where someone asks about the staff and Jim says to look for info in that time and a particular place (Ireland, I think it was?).

[Anthony]

I don't think MS is Death, not really she might be part of the aspect of death for mortals, or she could be a goddess (or as near as a pure force of nature can be) of death like the Fate was, but I'm not convinced she's Death.

The Fae are (at least so far) based on the fae legends and Celtic/Germanic legends. So far, Jim Butcher tried to keep gods being gods and Fae/fairies/monsters/supernatural beings being monsters. The Four Horseman are more Christian/abrahamic in origin. So I would rule out that possibility. So If I had to guess we will have to search for a legendary character who is most fitting for the Mother(s). And the one that seems to be most fitting is Frau Holle (it is even believed that the European word Hell (and different variations in different western languages) is derived from this source). Here are some parts of what Wikipedia says about her:

In Germanic folklore as established by Jacob Grimm,[1] Frau Holda or Holle is the supernatural matron of spinning, childbirth and domestic animals, and is also associated with winter, witches and the Wild Hunt. 

Spinning
Frau Holda is matron of all of women's domestic chores, but none so much as spinning, an activity with strong magical connotations and links to the other world

Winter
While governing domestic chores, Holda is also strongly associated with the outside wilderness, wild animals and places remote from man. Frau Holda's festival is in the middle of winter, the time when humans retreat indoors from the cold; it may be of significance that the Twelve Days of Christmas were originally the Zwölften ("the Twelve"), which like the same period in the Celtic calendar were an intercalary period during which the dead were thought to roam abroad.[6] Holda seems to personify the weather that transforms the land, for when it snows, it is said that Holda is shaking out her feather pillows; fog is smoke from her fire, and thunder is heard when she reels her flax. Holda traditionally appears in either of two forms: that of a snaggle-toothed, crooked-nosed old woman, or a shining youthful maiden clothed in white. As the maiden in white, her garments resemble the gleaming white of a fresh mantle of snow.

Protectress of children
While Holda is generally described as unmarried, and has no children of her own, she is the protectress of children, the kind spirit who would rock a child's cradle when its nurse fell asleep. She is said to own a sacred pool, through which the souls of newborn children enter the world

As Water-Holda
Many pools, wells or fountains are associated with the water-holda (roughly translated) throughout Germany. She haunts lakes and fountains and is seen as a fair White Lady bathing in the water and disappearing, a trait in which she resembles Nerthus. Like Nerthus, she too drives about in a wagon, sometimes requiring the help of a peasant to repair it. When he carves a new linchpin for her, she pays him with the cast-off wood chips which turn into gold if he is wise enough to take them. Young women would sometimes bathe in the icy Alpine pools in the hopes of becoming healthy fertile mothers.

Leader of the Wild Hunt
In German legend, Holda held her court within the Hörselberg, and from this mountain would issue the Wild Hunt, with her at its head. The faithful Eckhart was said to sit at the base of the mountain warning travellers to return whence they came; he also rode ahead of the Wild Hunt warning people to seek shelter from the coming storm. While Holda in northern Germany is described as leading a procession of the dead, her close counterpart in southern Germany, Perchta, is described as being surrounded by the souls of unborn children, or children who died before they were baptised. This points to Holda's dual role as protectress of souls both entering and leaving this world.

Matron of witches
Holda's connection to the spirit world through the magic of spinning and weaving has associated her with witchcraft in Catholic German folklore. She was considered to ride with witches on distaffs, which closely resemble the brooms that witches are thought to ride. Likewise, Holda was often identified with Diana in old church documents. As early as the beginning of the eleventh century she appears to have been known as the leader of women and female nocturnal spirits, which "in common parlance are called Hulden from Holda". These women would leave their houses in spirit, going "out through closed doors in the silence of the night, leaving their sleeping husbands behind". They would travel vast distances through the sky, to great feasts, or to battles amongst the clouds

I am sure Mother Winter is Frau Holle...

[MacsBestCustomer]

I don't think so. She probably has intellectus for all matters related to death, so in a sense she's there, but no need to come in person. Arthropos (one of her name), did her job with her shears without leaving her home.

This may be true, but MW losing her walking stick may also be used as an explanation of why humans are living longer lives now than when she had it. Also, The 'our' used by MS to describe both her and MW to me makes complete sense. In all of mythology Death has been described as a distinct persona but closely connecting to its counterpart - whichever word was used to describe Life. Death defines Life and Life enables death. One is not the same or complete without the other. That also brings up an interesting theory I have been thinking about - are the Mother mantles connected in a symbiotic way? Do the fae mantles get farther apart in purpose with less power?

MS is obviously aware of the purpose of Winter and helping the knight of Winter, while the Summer Lady and Winter Lady are the weakest, most prone to wanting conflict between the courts and most vulnerable to outside influence as is proven with the corruption of 2 Lady's and the death of 3. Titania and Mab are obviously not on friendly terms but seem to, at least for now, not be as susceptible to outside influence and want to keep the peace to focus on important matters like the Outsiders and the Outer Gates. So are MS and MW actually 2 faces of the same mantle, god or whatever you want to call it since they appear to be aligned in purpose and actually appear to somewhat like or need each other? What names from mythology take Death and Life into account as well as the seasons?

[Mercutio]

The office of each of the queens is a mantle, just like the winter knight, Mab was once mortal before she ascended through a rite similar to the dark hallow as per WOJ, so, I am sure, is Mw.  She is also Baba Yaga of the iron teeth and cleaver, she is also Atropos and Skuld, who was the original and what powers are innate to her? Unknown, but I think we have WOJ that the last ice age was the transition of the old Mother S to the current one, so that dates her somewhat...
Each of the immortals seem to add a mantle that has current relevance in order to maintain power in opposition to the Oblivian War.  Ivy is the enemy of all of them, odd that she is a signatory to the accords...

How is Ivy an enemy of the Fae?  Every word ever written is distilled in her mind, her Archive.  If anything the Fae should have a string of bodyguards keeping track of her at all times, she's the last failsafe from them being cut off from the mortal world.  If she's the enemy to anyone it's the Venators, the only way they can ever truly end the Oblivion War is if ALL mortal knowldge of the beings they want to banish is gone, and it will still be there as long as the Archive exists.

[King Ash]

How is Ivy an enemy of the Fae?  Every word ever written is distilled in her mind, her Archive.  If anything the Fae should have a string of bodyguards keeping track of her at all times, she's the last failsafe from them being cut off from the mortal world.  If she's the enemy to anyone it's the Venators, the only way they can ever truly end the Oblivion War is if ALL mortal knowldge of the beings they want to banish is gone, and it will still be there as long as the Archive exists.

Nope, recent WOJ says that Ivy is the leader of the Oblivion War. She keeps track of all the names of different monsters/gods etc and if there has been no recordings of them over 1000 years she deletes the info from her internal database. She just doesn't let anyone know this about her.

[Mercutio]

You're right. The 'our' problem is really difficult. I would point that deadly plagues grow stronger near MS, and that MW says that death gives value to life, so it's not totally impossible. It's also the old Ying-Yang dichotomie after all.

And about two different names:

So I may be stretching the facts, but I'm not completely hallucinating...

I can almost see in the BAT an event that Harry has to call both Mothers, where he has either has given MW the Blackstaff already or he has it to offer as a bargining chip.

"Life, Death, Gaia(or some other Mother Nature equivalent, Mother Nature is the full cycle of life, so it belongs to them both)."

Followed be a Fae style bargain and much badassery... that will probably bite him in the ass, he did just call into battle a being that uses bio-chemical warfare after all.

[Mercutio]

Nope, recent WOJ says that Ivy is the leader of the Oblivion War. She keeps track of all the names of different monsters/gods etc and if there has been no recordings of them over 1000 years she deletes the info from her internal database. She just doesn't let anyone know this about her.

Oh that's a new one for me, I'll take your word for it, but if you could or someone could post the WOJ I'd be grateful.  Dang I thought I had a good counter-argument.