[CD spoilers] Cowl = Simon reference thread

[123456789blaaa]

You say "and yet he already has in GP...)." but I don't recall him ever actually meeting Harry at the party. He was present there yes but I don't recall him seeing any of Harry's abilities.

[TheCuriousFan]

You say "and yet he already has in GP...)." but I don't recall him ever actually meeting Harry at the party. He was present there yes but I don't recall him seeing any of Harry's abilities.

Unless he got out of there really quickly he probably saw Harry vs the vamps (assuming you're talking about Cowl seeing Harry in action).

[123456789blaaa]

Unless he got out of there really quickly he probably saw Harry vs the vamps (assuming you're talking about Cowl seeing Harry in action).

I am.

My memory is foggy. What did Harry do to the vamps during the fight?

[madness]

I am.

My memory is foggy. What did Harry do to the vamps during the fight?

Harry tossed out what was probably his coolest fire spell EVER.

It wouldn't surprise me if it was a death curse powered spell of some sort (since his heart stopped and Michael had to revive him).

It was like a living fire spell that would jump from one vamp to another and engulf them.  Sort of like a fire snake (constrictor) spell or something.  It was unlike anything that he has used since in many ways.

[madness]

As much as I like the Simon = Cowl theory...

My most recent re-read of the series has me leaning much more strongly towards the 'Cowl is some sort of Fomor knight or Fomor ally' theory.

Probably the most important factor is that Cowl's various (confusing) motivations are more easily explained if they are taken as part of an overall Fomor strategy.

Both the Fomor and the Outsiders would need to destroy the existing supernatural powers (especially the Sidhe).  The same alliance(s) that fought the Black Court could reasonably be expected to oppose the return to power of the Fomor and thus would be obvious targets for the Fomor (and the Outsiders benefit from EVERYONE getting weaker).

A re-read of Dead Beat while specifically thinking about a Cowl = Simon theory made that theory more difficult to swallow as well.

[123456789blaaa]

Harry tossed out what was probably his coolest fire spell EVER.

It wouldn't surprise me if it was a death curse powered spell of some sort (since his heart stopped and Michael had to revive him).

It was like a living fire spell that would jump from one vamp to another and engulf them.  Sort of like a fire snake (constrictor) spell or something.  It was unlike anything that he has used since in many ways.

Hmmm...so either Cowl left early or he didn't see the maybe-Death Curse as an example of why Harry was making the Wardens so nervous (Perhaps Harry didn't make the Wardens nervous before GP?).
 

As much as I like the Simon = Cowl theory...

My most recent re-read of the series has me leaning much more strongly towards the 'Cowl is some sort of Fomor knight or Fomor ally' theory.

Probably the most important factor is that Cowl's various (confusing) motivations are more easily explained if they are taken as part of an overall Fomor strategy.

Both the Fomor and the Outsiders would need to destroy the existing supernatural powers (especially the Sidhe).  The same alliance(s) that fought the Black Court could reasonably be expected to oppose the return to power of the Fomor and thus would be obvious targets for the Fomor (and the Outsiders benefit from EVERYONE getting weaker).

A re-read of Dead Beat while specifically thinking about a Cowl = Simon theory made that theory more difficult to swallow as well.

I'm don't quite get what you're saying here. Why can't Cowl be Simon and be an ally of the Fomor?

Also can you be more specific as to why re-reading of Dead Beat while specifically thinking about a Cowl = Simon theory made that theory more difficult to swallow? 

[phoenixjustice]

It wouldn't surprise me if it was a death curse powered spell of some sort (since his heart stopped and Michael had to revive him).

Agree. Especially since I believe I was the first one to bring up the possibility. I used it to help strengthen the Simon is Cowl argument; because if what Harry used was a Death Curse, it shows that a wizard can use a Death Curse and survive it. So Simon could have used a Death Curse and still survived.

And left Archangel to take up a new identity...?

[123456789blaaa]

Agree. Especially since I believe I was the first one to bring up the possibility. I used it to help strengthen the Simon is Cowl argument; because if what Harry used was a Death Curse, it shows that a wizard can use a Death Curse and survive it. So Simon could have used a Death Curse and still survived.

And left Archangel to take up a new identity...?

Recall that Harry needed Micheals help. Cowl would probably have needed Kumori's help.

[peregrine]

Harry tossed out what was probably his coolest fire spell EVER.

It wouldn't surprise me if it was a death curse powered spell of some sort (since his heart stopped and Michael had to revive him).

It was like a living fire spell that would jump from one vamp to another and engulf them.  Sort of like a fire snake (constrictor) spell or something.  It was unlike anything that he has used since in many ways.

That was because it was a spell Kravos had.  I assume you're talking about when Susan had to revive him after he used his ghost to double team the nightmare Kravos?

Yeah, that's not a death curse.  It's called a death curse because it kills you, using all you've got to fuel it, leaving no energy left to maintain yourself.  Harry had done the dead part first, if he did a death curse again, he'd have died, again.

[knnn]

That was because it was a spell Kravos had.  I assume you're talking about when Susan had to revive him after he used his ghost to double team the nightmare Kravos?

No, he's talking about the fire spell Harry uses in the middle of the book - right at the end of the masquerade.  Harry's heart stops and Michael revives him.

[peregrine]

No, he's talking about the fire spell Harry uses in the middle of the book - right at the end of the masquerade.  Harry's heart stops and Michael revives him.

Ah, now I see.

I still don't think it's that easy to cast and survive a death curse, but I could see the argument.  I'd look more for the rage of Harry, plus the effects of the vampire venom causing his heart to give out on him after such an exertion than a proper death cursing, but the principle is very similar, I'm sure.

[madness]

Ah, now I see.

I still don't think it's that easy to cast and survive a death curse, but I could see the argument.  I'd look more for the rage of Harry, plus the effects of the vampire venom causing his heart to give out on him after such an exertion than a proper death cursing, but the principle is very similar, I'm sure.

If I had to go on record I would say that it wasn't a full death curse.

More like a "used so much magic that it killed him" curse rather than a formal death curse.  This could well be another one of those "shades of grey" issues that mortals have trouble with (death, evil, free will, souls, etc.).

Rather than putting ALL of his spirit (or whatever) into the curse like he would a death curse my guess is that he just put some of his spirit into it (a small enough amount that there was something left of his spirit to reinhabit his body when Michael did CPR).  Sort of like he uses bits of his soul when using soul-fire.

[123456789blaaa]

If I had to go on record I would say that it wasn't a full death curse.

More like a "used so much magic that it killed him" curse rather than a formal death curse.  This could well be another one of those "shades of grey" issues that mortals have trouble with (death, evil, free will, souls, etc.).

Rather than putting ALL of his spirit (or whatever) into the curse like he would a death curse my guess is that he just put some of his spirit into it (a small enough amount that there was something left of his spirit to reinhabit his body when Michael did CPR).  Sort of like he uses bits of his soul when using soul-fire.

I'm inclined to think it was a full death curse because the effect was like something we've never seen before (and we have a WoJ that death curses have a quality that makes them stand out from merely supercharged spells).

[madness]

Hmmm...so either Cowl left early or he didn't see the maybe-Death Curse as an example of why Harry was making the Wardens so nervous (Perhaps Harry didn't make the Wardens nervous before GP?).
 
I'm don't quite get what you're saying here. Why can't Cowl be Simon and be an ally of the Fomor?

Also can you be more specific as to why re-reading of Dead Beat while specifically thinking about a Cowl = Simon theory made that theory more difficult to swallow?

1)  My guess is that Cowl and Kumori were smart enough to get the heck out of Dodge once the violence kicked off.  The whole point of using proxies is that you avoid taking physical risks yourself.

2)  There is no definite reason that I can think of that Cowl could not be Simon as well as a servant of the Fomor. 

3)  A more careful re-read of Dead Beat left me with the impression that Cowl had worked with Kemmler and/or the Kemmlerites before and had a relationship with them going way back before Archangel.  It is possible that this could still apply to Simon but it just doesn't quite feel right.

They treat him as a peer of sorts but not as an intense rival (like they treat each other).  This makes me think that he is an ally but an outsider (not a Kemmlerite).  If you look at the Kemmlerites as filling the same role as Vittorio or Bianca I think that it feels similar.  An outside power offering assistance and the idiots taking the power not being smart enough to realize that they are being played.

[madness]

I'm inclined to think it was a full death curse because the effect was like something we've never seen before (and we have a WoJ that death curses have a quality that makes them stand out from merely supercharged spells).

The unique and complex nature of the spell was the tip-off for me as well.  Not to mention that he was suicidal and drawing power when he should have had none.