Cold Days Spoilers- Who isn't your Nemesis?

[Serack]

I may have to go and re-read that section, but my impression is that Thomas is simply commenting on Lara's power-grab ever since the events of White Night.  I believe there's a WoJ about how Maggie's death curse shut down White Court expansionist policy for two decades, with a closing statement of "It's only after the events of WN that... but I think I gave away too much".

Normally, i'd summon Serack for the exact quote, but since I'm replying to you....

Anyway, I see it more as the White Court bouncing back to "normal" rather than external corruption.  That battlecruiser in Changes is a scary example of the potential Lara has.

Excellent point

They sometimes do.   See what happened to all the vampires around Simon when they assaulted his compound immediately prior to the onstage events in Summer Knight.

However, while taking your killer down with you might be the most immediately gratifying thing to do with a death curse (assuming that they haven't up and prepared to defend against that kind of magical retaliation, which only a real moron *wouldn't* do if they knew they were off to murder a wizard), it might not be the SMARTEST thing you could do with it.  Still, magic in the Dresden universe is only as formidable as a wizard's imagination can make it.

I mean, Maggie's death curse on Raith did /more/ than render him virtually powerless.  It freaking crippled the entire White Court by rendering its head executive suddenly unwilling to get aggressive.  It took that same executive's focus and warped it from an outwardly-oriented expansionist agenda (What, did you really think Raith just bumped into Maggie at a /bar/ somewhere?) to one of frantic power-defense, paranoia, and infighting.  Had she merely killed Raith, another vampire much like him would simply have stepped into his shoes.  Instead, her curse sandbagged the entire White Court for two or three /decades/.

It isn't until the events of White Night that the White Court really begins to . . .

. . .but perhaps I've said too much.   

Anyway, Maggie's curse, of course, also made Raith suffer.  Horribly.  It made him live in a constant state of drug-withdrawal-level hunger, and fear, and eventually reduced him to outright slavery to someone with centuries of comeuppance to dish out.  But that was just icing on the cake.
Jim

[tuttman1234]

I don't think Lara is currently infected. Nemesis Maeve made a point of saying that it would be nice to have someone close to Lara. If Lara was infected, couldn't Lara infect Justine pretty much whenever she wanted to? Or infect someone else, someone human, and have that person infect Justine, to get around the whole protection thing.

[Serack]

knnn did a great job of pointing out alternative explenations for my suspicions.  I'm happy with her on the list again

[sjsharks]

knnn did a great job of pointing out alternative explenations for my suspicions.  I'm happy with her on the list again

As off topic as it may be, do you have any other important new WoJ that I have missed in my absence?

[Thork]

The biggest set of questions I have right now revolve around Lucifer.

Lucifer's traditionally referred to as "the Adversary" and has a history of corrupting people by granting them free will, just like Nemesis. He's been consistently off-screen in the books so far, but he definitely exists.

So the big question is, then -- did the Adversary/Nemesis corrupt Lucifer, or is Lucifer "The Adversary"? It's an important question because it also speaks to the power of the White God over Outsiders -- are they truly Outside his Creation? Outside his Plan, or part of it? If "The Adversary" is Lucifer, then the Outsiders are, at least theoretically, part of God's Plan; if Lucifer, and the demonic evils he represents and leads,  are a separate evil from the outsiders, then maybe the Outsiders aren't part of God's Plan, which is terrifying on a whole 'nother level.

In other words, is what happened to Molly part of God's Plan, or a corruption of it?

[sjsharks]

The biggest set of questions I have right now revolve around Lucifer.

Lucifer's traditionally referred to as "the Adversary" and has a history of corrupting people by granting them free will, just like Nemesis. He's been consistently off-screen in the books so far, but he definitely exists.

So the big question is, then -- did the Adversary/Nemesis corrupt Lucifer, or is Lucifer "The Adversary"? It's an important question because it also speaks to the power of the White God over Outsiders -- are they truly Outside his Creation? Outside his Plan, or part of it? If "The Adversary" is Lucifer, then the Outsiders are, at least theoretically, part of God's Plan; if Lucifer, and the demonic evils he represents and leads,  are a separate evil from the outsiders, then maybe the Outsiders aren't part of God's Plan, which is terrifying on a whole 'nother level.

In other words, is what happened to Molly part of God's Plan, or a corruption of it?

I don't think that we will ever find out if Nemesis is of TWG's creation or not, because I don't think we will ever truly see TWG or get a real scope for His power.

[Thork]

I don't think that we will ever find out if Nemesis is of TWG's creation or not, because I don't think we will ever truly see TWG or get a real scope for His power.

We kinda have to, though. We're already on a collision course for an answer to this question, just with the Denarians. Why was Nicodemus so surprised by the attack on Arctis Tor? Was he surprised because it meant his other Denarians were "infected" (i.e., Denarians can be evil without being infected, i.e., not all fallen angels are infected, i.e., Lucifer != Nemesis), or just because it meant Lucifer was running a plot he didn't know about? Lucifer would certainly have the metaphysical oomph to mount an attack on Arctis Tor!

[sjsharks]

We kinda have to, though. We're already on a collision course for an answer to this question, just with the Denarians. Why was Nicodemus so surprised by the attack on Arctis Tor? Was he surprised because it meant his other Denarians were "infected" (i.e., Denarians can be evil without being infected, i.e., not all fallen angels are infected, i.e., Lucifer != Nemesis), or just because it meant Lucifer was running a plot he didn't know about? Lucifer would certainly have the metaphysical oomph to mount an attack on Arctis Tor!

I'm sure we will see Lucifer. But he is allowed to cheat and directly act. TWG is not.

[Serack]

As off topic as it may be, do you have any other important new WoJ that I have missed in my absence?

Since feb or aug?  (I checked for breaks in postings, and those are what I found)  Since August check the sticky I made about Cold Days interviews...

Oh, check out this one on Ivy and the Oblivion war, that one is pretty big

Other than that, when I update the link list in the WoJ section I make an update post so you can check there for general time frames for new WoJ sources.

[knnn]

We kinda have to, though. We're already on a collision course for an answer to this question, just with the Denarians. Why was Nicodemus so surprised by the attack on Arctis Tor? Was he surprised because it meant his other Denarians were "infected" (i.e., Denarians can be evil without being infected, i.e., not all fallen angels are infected, i.e., Lucifer != Nemesis), or just because it meant Lucifer was running a plot he didn't know about? Lucifer would certainly have the metaphysical oomph to mount an attack on Arctis Tor!

Regarding the assault on AT, when Harry finally pours fire into the Well of Winter, Lea tells him that "all of us [Winter]" are coming to get him.  If this includes those on the Outer Gates, then this could totally have been an opportunity for an Outsider incursion....

It goes against the WoJs I have lined up, but maybe that was the point of the assault in the first place?

[Elegast]

It goes against the WoJs I have lined up, but maybe that was the point of the assault in the first place?

Don't think so. But it may have been the reason Lily gave some summer fire...

[Orbweaver]

Why is everyone assuming that Nemesis would automatically ramp things up to 11 and do something so obvious to betray the fact that it infected a high-level being?

From what we've seen, Nemesis doesn't do that. It's going to sit in the host and slowly move pieces into place so that a major event happens with little or no room or time (or both) to stop it from happening. It took Lea a long time between Grave Peril and her coup attempt before Proven Guilty.

And if Nemesis is an aspect of TWG at work, the entire Christian pantheon is probably subject to being infected. I don't think you can discount any of them, because Nemesis seems to have two goals: To turn the host's nature against itself and, in turn for that, to grant abilities or information the infected entity would not otherwise have had access to.

[knnn]

Don't think so. But it may have been the reason Lily gave some summer fire...

Remember that it was Maeve who slowed time in Winter, ostensibly to allow Summer time to orchestrate a smack-down on the Rampires.  If Maeve was already infected by then, then perhaps this also served to keep the Outer Gates undefended a while longer?

[Orbweaver]

Remember that it was Maeve who slowed time in Winter, ostensibly to allow Summer time to orchestrate a smack-down on the Rampires.  If Maeve was already infected by then, then perhaps this also served to keep the Outer Gates undefended a while longer?

It was likely also to make sure the Red Court got infected, and at the highest level possible.

[SirBrettski]

We don't really have any way of knowing who is and isn't infected. But who's been left alone with Nemesis and provided ample oppritunity for infection? All you can really do is ask yourself who has been captured and then needed be rescued.

so uhhhh perhaps elaine, molly, murphey, thomas, ivy, marcone, mortimer, georgia, andi, justine, mac, sarissa...

oh yeah, Christos made a point of locking up nearly all the younger wardens plus anna during changes.