Author Topic: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]  (Read 14757 times)

Offline Cenphx

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1118
    • View Profile
Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
« on: November 28, 2012, 06:31:58 PM »
So given the information we got in Cold Days, I wanted to revisit my theory about the parasite being an Outsider placed in Harry by He Who Walks Behind during their initial encounter when Harry was 16 and test whether it still works. Here is the original thread:

The following link died (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32084.msg1395852.html#msg1395852), here is the content that used to be in the OP. -Elegast

Quote from:  Cenphx
Hello, this is my first post of a question and I decided to pull out the craziest possibility that’s been kicking around my head.

I won’t bury the lede: I think there is a real possibility that the parasite is He Who Walks Behind.

Begin when Harry is recounting/reliving/remembering his encounter with HWWB to Lea (starts at about page 277 of Ghost Story (hardback edition)). Harry receives some injury to his back/neck/spine BEFORE he is struck for the first time by HWWB (p.281):

The confrontation continues and Stan is killed. Then we have these sections:

I had always read the above section to be that a rage larger than Harry had ever felt before  awakening a larger possibility within him for magic. But, what if that is not all that was coming online? What if a daughter organism from HWWB was also unfurling?

What if HWWB was not seeing the great wizard in Harry but signs of the parasite it planted? One question I have always had was after Harry struck back at HWWB, the outsider says:

What did HWWB expect? Harry to want to hold hands? OF COURSE, Harry would strike back, right? Maybe ineffectually, maybe with a lot of fear, but c’mon. Sooo…Maybe HWWB was not talking to Harry at all, but its own daughter organism. 

When Demonreach tells Harry about the parasite, it says that Mab provided breath, the island provided nourishment and the parasite “kept the blood flowing.” Guess which part of your brain controls vital functions like blood pressure, temperature and blood circulation? That’s right---the brain stem. It is the lowest part of the brain and connects to the spinal cord. Maybe where Harry felt the “fire erupt”? I know Lash makes a lot of sense as the parasite (how many times did she say “my host”?) but maybe we should consider a much more literal, physiological parasite rather than a purely spiritual one.

The theory leads to some an interesting speculation. What if Harry’s parasite is making him much more willing to confront the big bads? It’s a scientific fact that some parasites alter the behavior of their host organism, making them do things not only which are not natural, but which are downright deadly for the host. The parasite T. gondii, when in mice, makes the mice not only not afraid of cats, but makes them seek the cats out. Bad for the mouse, but good for T. gondii, because the best host for it is the intestinal tract of the cat. (first time I ever heard of this was in a book series by Daniel Abramson writing as M.L.N. Hanover—the Black Sun’s Daughter.)

All this leads to what does HWWB get out of infecting Harry? Here is complete, rank, speculation: what if “the door” the outsider’s are going to come through is not a physical, magical one. What if Harry is the door?


Shorter: HWWB was not trying to kill Harry but instead infected him with a parasite during the fight. Ever since, Harry has been fighting its dark influence. Previously I posited that the parasite was HWWB himself (I’m modifying that slightly now-see below. But still an outside and still a walker) Finally, Harry, through this parasite, will be the door the Outsider uses to get into our world.

Since some people won’t read all this, let me make my favorite point now. Here’s the poetic part of this theory, to me:  Harry’s greatest fear is becoming a monster. We see this in his fears about what the Winter Knight mantle is doing to him and whether he will be able to resist it. Throughout the series, we often are made to consider what it means to be monster (Thomas, Marcone), and think about actions and choices that lead that way, as well as having “monsterhood” thrust upon you involuntarily (Susan, Lily (depending on how one defines monster—for instance, if the Winter Lady mantle could turn Molly into a soulless psycho sex monster Maeve, is that monsterhood? Did the Summer Lady mantle change Lily?) ANYHOW, the point I am getting at is that through all these books of angst about monsterhood, Harry had a monster in his head the whole time. We, from the very first moment we met him, have experienced Harry-as-possible-monster. His greatest fear was something he was already experiencing, dealing with, learning to live with. The character we all like or love or respect or all three, has had the worst bad guy right in his head the whole time.

Questions/points from information we got in CD:

Why would Mab or Demonreach, having knowledge of the parasite, allow Harry to live/give him such important powers/duties considering Mab was willing to kill her own daughter who was infected?

Harry, unlike Maeve or Lea, has been infected for 30ish (how old is he?) years and has not went darkside, the parasite does not seem to be controlling him, he is managing the infection.

Moreover, we have heard multiple times that Harry is a/the fulcrum for the events leading to the BAT and/or the BAT itself. A fulcrum is the thing upon which everything else balances and turns. As such, he may be too important to kill. But I think this is less the reason than my next reason for why Mab/Demonreach would not kill him. Beyond the strict definition of a fulcrum, in literary contexts or movies, I always think of the fulcrum character not just defined by the way the struggle between good and evil turns on the character, but also the way the character, internally, is teetering between good and evil. (My personal reference for this is Darth Vader—all through the early stories he could go either way, then he goes way dark, which puts him at the critical moment with the choice between good and evil, kill his mentor, the emperor, or his son. He is the fulcrum, to me.) If you accept this concept of what it means to be a fulcrum, then by definition, the fact that Harry has potential for great evil within him would be accepted as part of the nature of who and what he is. Since he also has the potential for great good, killing him would be counterproductive. Plus, would another person then become the fulcrum? One who Mab/Demonreach would be less able to push the direction they wanted or needed? You know that saying, keep your friends close but your enemies closer? Well, by keeping Harry at hand and monitored, Mab has her enemy and her friend close. But mostly, I think you just have to accept that fulcrum characters are dangerous, otherwise they wouldn’t be important, you just have to hope and plan for them tipping your way at the right time.

Also, if Harry’s parasite is the third walker, as I suggest below, then killing him and it, would just free the walker to be placed into someone else who might not be able to control it like Harry is. As it stands, Harry’s head is its prison. Just another way in which Harry is THE WARDEN.

Why does the parasite in Harry seem different than the Nemesis infections in other people, like Lea or Maeve?

Some parasites actually infect multiple people/organisms, but are still part of a collective, like a hive. Perhaps Harry is infected with the most important parasite, like a queen bee. It was this idea that made me think that maybe the parasite in Harry is He Who Walks Within (HWWW), the third walker, which I just made up. It would explain why He Who Walks Before (HWWBf ?? versus HWWBh?? I need better abbreviations) seemed to want to take custody of Harry and/or talk to him at Mac’s bar; it didn’t seem like he was trying to kill him. The walkers are trying to recruit him.

What about the fact that Harry’s headaches only started relatively recently, potentially around the time Lash was obliterated-doesn’t  that make Lash more likely to be the parasite?

I think there are some compelling arguments to be made that Lash is the parasite (not the least of which is the time Jim answered a question that Lash was the parasite, plus I have no idea who Lash was in GS if she was not the parasite).  I am not great on the timeline of exactly when Lash died versus when the headaches began, but from what I remember reading here, the two seem to match up nicely.
That being said, in support of the parasite being HWWW, parasites can be dormant for long periods of time, years and years. The biology of parasites is pretty remarkable. The can “wake up” or even if already awake, they can accelerate their behavior or change it. So HWWW could be trying to take control of Harry in preparation for ….whatever the Outsiders’ plan is. I find it completely plausible that only now the parasite is causing serious physical problems for Harry.

Why does Rashid not notice that Harry is infected since he has the ability to see Outsider infection?

Who said he hasn’t? Could be why he has been watching him so very closely, but not killing him for the same reasons as Mab and Demonreach.

But Harry is Outsiderbane. Wouldn’t that mean he/his body would repel an outsider?

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what “Outsiderbane” means. Maybe the term means the one who bring the downfall of the Outsiders or kills them. On the flip, say Harry does have some natural bad reaction to Outsiders, maybe that is why he is having the headaches now. Maybe like a build-up of inflammation or an allergic reaction, maybe now Harry’s body is finally manifesting outsider problems.

What about how DR said the parasite was going to burst forth from his head and he should ask Molly to help?

I don’t know whether to take DR literally about the bursting forth or figuratively, like emerge from stasis and take over. But if DR meant it literally, like the equivalent of an alien bursting out of someone’s chest, why the heck would Molly be the go-to person for such a physical problem? Wouldn’t Butters or a neurologist who operates on tumors be a better candidate? Why Molly? Maybe because Molly, with her powerful ability to understand the inside of someone else’s mind, would be able to tell Harry that he has been living with and controlling the parasite for 30 years, he just did not know it, so he just needs to chill out and remember he is in control, not the parasite.

Speaking of which , why is Harry’s parasite “bursting out” when Lea’s was able to be killed through popsicling?
 
Age of the infection. Older parasites are harder to remove, more fully integrated into their host.



What do you all think?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 11:03:25 PM by Elegast »

Offline Elegast

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2012, 06:46:24 PM »
What do you all think?

That you're awesome.  ;D

The biggest problem is Lash: we have a WOJ saying Lash was in GS. Who can it be except the parasite?
My "Maeve came to Splattercon!!! disguised as a vampire" theory : Maeve did it

All the theories on the Dresden Files

Offline Cenphx

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1118
    • View Profile
Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2012, 07:02:15 PM »
I have never been able to come up with a satisfactory answer for where Lash was in GS. Anywhere you put her creates other problems.

Like if she was Inez in the cemetary, and I think some of the language Inez used fits a fallen angel kinda nicely, but then, who was Mab's proxy? Since there is a WoJ I believe, that DR and Mab each had a proxy there. 

If Lash was the whisperer at the church, then where was Lasciel in the book? Plus, the Whisperer seems more evil and out to get Harry, and I don't peg Lash as that antagonistic.

I suppose Lash could appear as to Harry as another person, like she did in DB as Sheila.  I haven't reread GS looking for a character with whom only Harry interacts while he is alone.  But this feels like a stretch to me.

So I'm stuck.

Offline J_M

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2012, 08:55:11 PM »
That you're awesome.  ;D

The biggest problem is Lash: we have a WOJ saying Lash was in GS. Who can it be except the parasite?

Why can't it be both? 
Quote from: Location 3114(ish), Ch. 17
Demonreach growled.  In all capital letters.
And the headache vanished.
One second, my scalp was tightening up as two separate ice picks dug into my skull in the same places they always did, and the next the pain was utterly gone.

So, just to play devil's advocate, here's the theory.  HWWW did indeed infect Dresden at some point in the past, but has always lain low.  Similarly to Lash, it could have made itself known to some portion of Harry's subconscious (or not), but it's smart.  Harry's important for some reason, and the last thing it wants is to be discovered.  Lash commits quasi-harry-karry (misspelled on purpose), leaving room in his mind for the Nemesis to take further root.  Previous headaches were initially caused by Lash doing...whatever, but the Nemesis sees an opportunity to inflict pain scot-free, and makes its own head-spike thing, and is smart enough to stop every time Lash does.  It's not perfect, but I could see how it might work.

Offline aShorty21

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1063
    • View Profile
Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2012, 09:04:28 PM »
Why can't it be both? 
Perhaps the headaches are from Lash and HWWW fighting? Lash to protect, HWWW to control.

Of course that means that Lash is still the parasite, but Harry has a walker inside himself. Harry could of also been infected by Nemisis in the deeps when he was under mind wammy attack. HWWB didn't try to put the mind wammy on him. That would lend credence to headaches starting after Lash "died" (since that would also be when he got infected).
DV aShorty21 V1.2 YR5 FR4 BK++ RP- JB TH++ WG++ CL SW BC++ MC---- SH(Velvet Room+++++,Murphy+++,Sarissa++,Lash+,Lara+,Molly--)

Offline Elegast

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2012, 05:26:49 PM »

Shorter: HWWB was not trying to kill Harry but instead infected him with a parasite during the fight. Ever since, Harry has been fighting its dark influence. Previously I posited that the parasite was HWWB himself (I’m modifying that slightly now-see below. But still an outside and still a walker) Finally, Harry, through this parasite, will be the door the Outsider uses to get into our world.

What do you all think?

I've been thinking a bit about your threads, and I'm convinced that He-Who-Walks-Within, a parasite Walker, is a real possibility.

However, due to the various WOJ, it cannot be the parasite. So I would say that Harry is NOT infected with HWWW.

But we have still two other suspects: Vittorio Malvora and maybe Lord Raith.

Quote from: White Night
Lasciel squared her shoulders and straightened. "You're right," she said. "It is my choice. Listen to me." She leaned closer, her eyes intent. "Vittorio has been given power. That is how he can do this. He is possessed."
I wished I could have raised my eyebrows. Possessed by what?
"An Outsider," Lasciel said. "I have felt such a presence before. This attack is drawn directly from the mind of the Outsider."

Lord Raith is also a likely suspect: he had an insanely powerful psychic attack, and he had dealings with the Walkers (Blood Rites). So maybe he summoned HWWW in his body, and in exchange his powers were boosted and he was protected from magic.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 05:28:36 PM by Elegast »
My "Maeve came to Splattercon!!! disguised as a vampire" theory : Maeve did it

All the theories on the Dresden Files

Offline Cenphx

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1118
    • View Profile
Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2012, 05:46:50 PM »
I think Harry having an outsider inside him does so many cool things for the story, its hard for me to get past it. But setting it aside, Lord Raith as having HWWW in him seems a distinct possibility. Somone else recently suggested that in his fight with Lara, since we didnt see it, its possible he infected her and the puppet show has been an elaborate, *ingenious*, ruse. And any version of that infection tree you were working on has Lord Raith at or close to the beginning. I like him for having HWWW inside him more than Vitto.

Offline Blackblade

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 924
    • View Profile
Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2012, 05:47:07 PM »
He Who Walks Within is actually the entity previously mistaken as Harry's subconscious.  It took root there after Harry's first encounter with HWWB, and has been running a long con to eventually subvert him.  When Lash first showed up, HWWW was happy to see her, since she would serve as another method of breaking down Harry's will.  After her apparent death in WN, a small remnant of her lingered around and began to slowly heal. 

At this point, HWWW decided that the reformed, self-sacrificing Lash would not help his cause any further, so he began trying to suppress/destroy her while she was down; this is what caused the headaches.  It could also explain why Harry hasn't talked with him in so long; he's been busy. 

Offline craigallen

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2012, 05:52:40 PM »
Some thoughts on the Lash being the parasite theory.

Lash was a piece of Lasciel, not Lasciel itself, in much the same way a branch cut from a tree is not the tree, but only part of it. We extend this metaphor to a cutting of grape roots that were taken to France when a plague of aphids hit many of France's vineyards nearly decimating their wine industry. If not for the rootstock of American grape varieties grafted to the french vines it would have been very bad. Now the American grape roots and the French grape vines are growing together to form something new. neither wholly one or the other original. So then, Lash is "grafted" onto Harry and Harry changes her to the point that she rebels against her Lasciel induced instincts and saves Harry's life, thereby "taking a bullet" for Harry as Michael points out later. Is Lash dead? Apparently not if JB says she showed up slightly changed in GS.

My thoughts are that Lash if JB says Lash is around then she is not in Harry anymore. Harry allowed her to become her own entity (perhaps this is how baby mantles are born) and now she is free, both of Harry's head (a pretty scary place to be I'm sure) and Lasciel's influence. She has, in essence, tasted of the fruit of the tree of Good and Evil.

As to the parasite itself, if could be the contagion of the Nemesis (as Blackblade intimates). If true, that puts a slightly different spin on DR saying it would "explode out of" Harry's head. This could be not so much in the Alien-out-of-the-doomed-astronaut's-stomach kind of explosion, but more like what happened to Cat Sith when the contagion (parasite?) completely took over on the barge. It "exploded" out of Sith's head, as it were, completely subsuming Sith (I so hope Sith is not dead and that the contagion can be gotten out, hopefully by Harry thereby making the Malk indebted to him for its life and wouldn't that be just grand... and I wonder how Mister and Sith will get along). And if Molly holds the key to getting the parasite out, I'm sure her abilities to do so will now be enhanced considerably by her now being the Winter Lady. But methinks the clock is ticking for Harry and his Harrisite.

ca
"Plans within plans within plans. What the hell does that mean?" - from Doon: The Dessert Planet

Offline Phobos

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 116
    • View Profile
Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2012, 06:04:53 PM »
I've got a theory about the Walker's place in the Outsiders.
In Cold Days I think Mac was telling Harry that there were 3 Walkers (or rather implied it) with the beer bottle thing. We didn't find out that Sharkface was a Walker (He Who Walks Before) until the later chapters of CD. With that knowledge there appears to be a naming convention implied (He Who Walks Before, He Who Walks Behind), which leads me to believe the third one is named something like "He Who Walks Beside".

My theory is that the 3 Walkers are leaders focusing on a different strategy for the Outsiders infiltration. Their the Black Ops guys.

HWWBefore- Is the direct, in your face operator. (Attacking Harry at Mac's, Attacking DR. I wouldn't be surpirsed if he was the one leading the Outsider attack on the WC in Proven Guilty)
HWWBeside- Is the one operating in plain sight, right next to you without you even realizing it, but still working in the open to some extent. (This is one of my candidates for Nemesis, if it is in fact a Walker as opposed to something different)
HWWBehind- Is the one working covertly, working through intermediaries, and building subtle support and influence for the Outsider agenda (Lord Raith, Justin Dumorne, Victor Sells, etc.). (Also one of my suspects for Nemesis, barring the previous situation)

Of course I think roles I have pegged for HWWBeside and HWWBehind could easily be switched.

Offline JDK002

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 355
    • View Profile
Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2012, 06:58:37 PM »
I like the idea of an Outsider and Lash warring inside Harrys head.  Though there's a bit of an inconsistency in that idea.  It would mean Lash would have to be ignorant of the Outsider for the several years he was in Harrys head; which I just don't buy.  She would of known about another entity in his head the second Harry touched the coin.

Offline Cenphx

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1118
    • View Profile
Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2012, 07:03:25 PM »
She does tell Harry she's felt an outsider influence like Vitto's before....so maybe she did notice the other thing rolling around in Harry's head. That begs the question of why she didnt say so-so long as Harry was in no immediate danger, I think she would hold onto the info until she could use it to her benefit.

Offline Haru

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5520
  • Mentally unstable like a fox.
    • View Profile
Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2012, 07:11:22 PM »
Didn't Lash say something along the lines of "you are touched by more darkness, than my own"? Wouldn't that fit a nemesis infection rather neatly?
Or another idea: Lash was not killed, she was just badly injured. Really bad. Now all the time with Harry has made her an individual entity, separate from Lasciel. So there we are, in the deeps, everything about to be blown to pieces. The outsiders/nemesis in the room would certainly know that as well, so they try to escape. They probably realize, that they don't have a chance to invade Harry, outsiderbane and strong-willed and all that. But he is totting around an unconscious being, too week to defend itself against an invasion.
So instead of the parasite being nemesis or Lash, it is nemesis-Lash.

Which would also give the "bursting out" a new interpretation. If Lash really is a separate entity, not only from Lasciel, but also from Harry, then nemesis might give her enough power to form a body and break out of Harry's noggin.
“Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Offline Cenphx

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1118
    • View Profile
Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2012, 07:46:54 PM »
Holy crap. That made me think about the people who tell Harry he has darkness or a stain or whatever on him. I doublechecked what the ThreeEye junkie said to Harry at the police station in SF: '...I see you wizard! I see the things that follow, those who walk before and He Who Walks Behind! They come, they come for you!' So the junkie saw BOTH walkers just by looking at Harry???

Offline Cenphx

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1118
    • View Profile
Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2012, 07:51:19 PM »
Ill start a new thread on the 3 Eye junkie thing-its a tangent....