CD Spoilers: The Case of the Stolen Walking Stick

[nick012000]

Personally, what I'm wondering is what happens if Mother Winter gets a titanium hip replacement.

[King Ash]

I found it interesting when Harry speculated that the Ladies would have some degree of control over Demonreach being a part of nature.

[Haru]

I think that the Blackstaff/Walking Cane might not actually be Mother Winter's, in a "she made it/it's part of her" way. Maybe the Staff is more like the wild hunt. Earlking usually is the leader of the wildhunt, because he is the strongest hunter around. But he can be replaced, as shown. Now I think the same might apply to the Staff, and it would explain, why Mother Winter is not simply getting it back. She was bested, and she can't. Like a "no take backs" rule or something. Even the Earlking asked nicely, if he could have his wild hunt back.

[Serack]

Ok so to reiterate:

There is a Celtic legend that the Blackstaff is based off of that comes from around 1065 A.D.

How long has the White Council had the Blackstaff
Look for Celtic Lore around 1065 ad.

Jim has also said:

Q:  Can you tell us a little more about the black staff?
A:   The staff keeps Eb from going crazy, mostly.  Also, the White Council stole it from someone.  And they really want it back.

As the OP points out, Mother Winter had a walking stick that was lost and "she can't move around without it, so she probably wants it back."

Now add in the fact that Titania said:

"I do not know." She gave me an oblique look. "I have not exchanged words with my sister since before Hastings."

The battle of Hastings happend in 1066, or "around 1065 A.D." ^{(Blackblade citation)}

So I really really want to find out about if there is a "celtic legend" from around the time of the Battle of Hastings that involves an old crone losing her walking stick.  Google isn't getting the job done for me yet though.

HALP!

Extra thoughts:
Mother Winter has an IRON set of false teeth.  Kinda odd for a fairy right?

[AcornArmy]

I think that the Blackstaff/Walking Cane might not actually be Mother Winter's, in a "she made it/it's part of her" way. Maybe the Staff is more like the wild hunt. Earlking usually is the leader of the wildhunt, because he is the strongest hunter around. But he can be replaced, as shown. Now I think the same might apply to the Staff, and it would explain, why Mother Winter is not simply getting it back. She was bested, and she can't. Like a "no take backs" rule or something. Even the Earlking asked nicely, if he could have his wild hunt back.

That's an interesting idea. It seems to me that a rule like that would only come into play if Mother Winter lost the staff fair and square, though, like in a game of some kind. Or a bet. Seems like the kind of thing Merlin might have done, since we know he won the Edinburgh headquarters in a bet with a Faerie lord. And Harry did provide a practical demonstration early on in Cold Days that the Sidhe can hardly ever manage to keep from playing games.

[Bakoro]

Ehem.
From my 100% trustworthy and accurate internet research, I have found, I believe, who the staff belonged to.

The Dagda, an ancient Celtic deity also referred to as "The All-Father", had a magical staff, or club, that had the ability to kill with one side, and raise the dead with the other. Supposedly his staff could kill 9 at one. He also had a Cauldron that could make infinite food, which was the original "Holy Grail" that King Arthur was after, before the story got changed. Also he had 2 magic pigs or something.

Oh yeah, the Dagda is also the warrior god that defeated the Fomorians and kicked them out of Ireland.

So there you have it, that's a bit of the Real Life lore and it seems to mesh up with several parts of the Dresdenverse.
The question then becomes, if the Dagda (who is too close to Odin to not be Odin) was the owner of the Blackstaff for a time, was he the one that the White Council stole it from, or had it changed owners by then?
Also some other avenues open up here. Arthur, Knight of the Cross, went on a quest to get a magic item that belonged to the Dagda, and it so happens that Arthur's Wizard buddy starts up the White Council who just so happen to have the Dagda's magic kill stick?
No coincidence.

I know it would seem odd that Odin would be chummy with the current Blackstaff Eb, but we know that he plays the long game and doesn't seem particularly petty, so maybe he and Eb have an understanding, or kinship. Maybe a lot of things.
 
It still could be that Mother Winter was the original owner, but there is an Odin/Merlin angle here for sure.

[Serack]

Ehem.
From my 100% trustworthy and accurate internet research, I have found, I believe, who the staff belonged to.

The Dagda, an ancient Celtic deity also referred to as "The All-Father", had a magical staff, or club, that had the ability to kill with one side, and raise the dead with the other. Supposedly his staff could kill 9 at one. He also had a Cauldron that could make infinite food, which was the original "Holy Grail" that King Arthur was after, before the story got changed. Also he had 2 magic pigs or something.

Oh yeah, the Dagda is also the warrior god that defeated the Fomorians and kicked them out of Ireland.

So there you have it, that's a bit of the Real Life lore and it seems to mesh up with several parts of the Dresdenverse.
The question then becomes, if the Dagda (who is too close to Odin to not be Odin) was the owner of the Blackstaff for a time, was he the one that the White Council stole it from, or had it changed owners by then?
Also some other avenues open up here. Arthur, Knight of the Cross, went on a quest to get a magic item that belonged to the Dagda, and it so happens that Arthur's Wizard buddy starts up the White Council who just so happen to have the Dagda's magic kill stick?
No coincidence.

I know it would seem odd that Odin would be chummy with the current Blackstaff Eb, but we know that he plays the long game and doesn't seem particularly petty, so maybe he and Eb have an understanding, or kinship. Maybe a lot of things.
 
It still could be that Mother Winter was the original owner, but there is an Odin/Merlin angle here for sure.

I've seen similar theories before, and I think they are possible, but they aren't tied to the 1065 AD timeframe very well.  I think they are the best tiein we have thus far but these WoJ's about the blackstaff make me think they are going in the wrong direction:

When Eb does his "Laying of the Cattle move" at the major battle near the end of Changes, is that a power of the blackstaff?
The Blackstaff is what keeps that kind of thing from driving him insane and turning him into a giggling villain.  Yah you don't go messing with black magic in the Dresden Files, it's very very bad for you.  At the same time, Magic is something that happens because you truly believe that when you set out to do it that you should be able to do that sort of thing.  That says a few things about Eb that really Harry hasn't run into in any other forum other than right there.  Yah Poor guy, He's got a tough job. 
@4:30
Does the blackstaff have any powers that relate to the dead?
Other than making people dead?  Really, that's kind of the point [Crowd Laughs]  Really but the staff itself what it really does is it keeps Eb sane while he's doing insane things.  Lucky him, he gets to deal with a hideously guilty conscious and nightmares later, but that's better than later being like *Muahahahahahahahaha*  Which is sort of the other option if your going to go around using magic like that. 

Some might read this differently, but I read this as saying the staff isn't doing the killing, Eb is, and the staff is just helping him keep sane and uncorrputed by the darkness of the magic.  Which doesn't quite fit with the legends of Dagda's club (which is what I think the askers here were tiptoeing around asking about to avoid an "I'm not gonna tell you" sing song)

[Haru]

It still could be that Mother Winter was the original owner, but there is an Odin/Merlin angle here for sure.

I kind of think that Merlin is just one of the many mantles that Odin has been wearing over time.

On that note, wasn't there a story somewhere, where Odin disguised himself as an old woman for some reason? Maybe he was the former Mother Summer, and when he changed, he put down that mantle for someone else to pick up.

Maybe Odin is... everyone!!! 

[AcornArmy]

Maybe Odin is... everyone!!! 

Or maybe Odin was just the guy who stole the stick. It could as easily have been him as Merlin, surely.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

Hmm. It's possible Odin could have done it - he seems crafty enough, but if he's also Kringle, then couldn't he just, y'know, ask?

[Viktor]

Ok so to reiterate:

There is a Celtic legend that the Blackstaff is based off of that comes from around 1065 A.D.

Jim has also said:
As the OP points out, Mother Winter had a walking stick that was lost and "she can't move around without it, so she probably wants it back."

Now add in the fact that Titania said:
The battle of Hastings happend in 1066, or "around 1065 A.D." ^{(Blackblade citation)}

So I really really want to find out about if there is a "celtic legend" from around the time of the Battle of Hastings that involves an old crone losing her walking stick.  Google isn't getting the job done for me yet though.

HALP!

Extra thoughts:
Mother Winter has an IRON set of false teeth.  Kinda odd for a fairy right?

I searched and searched, can't find ANYthing on this topic (Except that maybe the Winter Queens were also known as The Morrigan, but maybe I found out what it's made out of...

"BLACKTHORN
Blackthorn is a winter tree. Its white flowers are seen even before the leaves in the spring. It is black barked with vicious thorns and grows in dense thickets. The wood is used in the cudgel shillelagh and Blasting Stick. Its thorns are used to pierce waxen images. Blackthorn indicates strong action of fate or outside influences that must be obeyed. "

EDIT: More and more interesting...
"Straif Drai'on Draenenwen Blackthorn - "Tree of Punishment and Strife" Peasant. Staves of Magickal Power. Draoi (Wizard), Drai" (Druid). Power in Visible and Invisible Worlds. Use to overcome resistance to One's will. Sorcha (bright colored) or purple-black."

[AcornArmy]

I searched and searched, can't find ANYthing on this topic (Except that maybe the Winter Queens were also known as The Morrigan, but maybe I found out what it's made out of...

"BLACKTHORN
Blackthorn is a winter tree. Its white flowers are seen even before the leaves in the spring. It is black barked with vicious thorns and grows in dense thickets. The wood is used in the cudgel shillelagh and Blasting Stick. Its thorns are used to pierce waxen images. Blackthorn indicates strong action of fate or outside influences that must be obeyed. "

EDIT: More and more interesting...
"Straif Drai'on Draenenwen Blackthorn - "Tree of Punishment and Strife" Peasant. Staves of Magickal Power. Draoi (Wizard), Drai" (Druid). Power in Visible and Invisible Worlds. Use to overcome resistance to One's will. Sorcha (bright colored) or purple-black."

Even if that stuff somehow isn't connected to the Blackstaff-- which I doubt, after reading it-- that's still some of the coolest mythology info I've seen. Nice.

[Bakoro]

I searched and searched, can't find ANYthing on this topic (Except that maybe the Winter Queens were also known as The Morrigan, but maybe I found out what it's made out of...

This is interesting. On further reading on the Morrigan, it seems that she was the consort to the Dagda, and she indeed translates quite perfectly into the Winter Queen thing. Depending on the source, it also seems that Morgan Le Fay might have been her human aspect. Considering the relationship between the Dagda/Morrigan and Merlin/Morgan, there might be some credence to the "Odin is Merlin" theory. In the same book we find Vaderung is Odin is Kringle who has Time Powers, and we also see that Merlin is very powerful and has Time Powers AND the mental acuity to work in multiple dimensions- I'd say there's a correlation.

I personally like the idea that the original Merlin was just a crafty bad-ass wizard. I feel that Odin is Santa is Merlin is taking it one step too far, but I of course trust Jim could make it work and be believable and interesting.
I guess it really depends on which stories Jim draws from. It looks like Morgan Le Fey was originally a supernatural being, and later was reported to be Arthur's half sister. Merlin was supposed to have a demon as his father, I like the idea that Odin is Merlin's Sire better than the two being the same person.

I've seen similar theories before, and I think they are possible, but they aren't tied to the 1065 AD timeframe very well.  I think they are the best tiein we have thus far but these WoJ's about the blackstaff make me think they are going in the wrong direction:

Some might read this differently, but I read this as saying the staff isn't doing the killing, Eb is, and the staff is just helping him keep sane and uncorrputed by the darkness of the magic.  Which doesn't quite fit with the legends of Dagda's club (which is what I think the askers here were tiptoeing around asking about to avoid an "I'm not gonna tell you" sing song)

The more I'm looking into it the more things seem to mesh up. Jim specifically mentions Celtic legend and the Dagda story jibs with Arthurian legend and Dresdenology. The thing is that we don't have to go 100% on the real world lore because it all goes through the Jim filter. Lore is a bunch of half-truths anyway.
I am totally open to hearing your thoughts on the matter if you have another line of thought for me to investigate.
I'm just not mentally tying the Blackstaff too tightly to the 1065 AD time frame. That might have been when a change of hands occurred or something.

I immediately could only find a few historically important things of note (thing that I can relate directly to DF) that happened in 1060s Europe:
1063: The River Thames is frozen for 14 weeks. (Obviously something Wintery happened)
1066:
King of England dies, and New King (Harold) gets chosen by a council of old men.
Battle of Hastings, King Harold and all his brothers are killed and England gets taken over.
Dark Ages ends, Middle Ages begin.
End of the Viking Age in England.

We have a little bit to work with there in terms of guessing at the powers and meaning behind those events, but as far as lore and mythology goes I'm at a total lose as to were else I should be looking.

[KevinSig]

HALP!

Extra thoughts:
Mother Winter has an IRON set of false teeth.  Kinda odd for a fairy right?

I don't think this is the tale you're looking for, but it is interesting & reminds me of Mother Winter.

The Witch of Wookey
Wookey, Somerset

Deep in the dark caverns of Wookey Hole dwelt at one time the Witch of Wookey - and dwells there still, if the gossips are to be trusted, though she, her pots and pans and horrid "familiars," are all turned to stone. A chagrined and disappointed woman, she used her merciless arts to blight girls' lives and keep them from the joys denied to herself. But she reckoned without a certain Holy Clerk of Glastonbury! With his Good Book he exorcised the Witch, and turned her to stone; he then cleansed from all evil the dreadful cavern.

http://www.britannia.com/history/legend/collection/legcol13.html

It'd be a stretch to think that relieving Mother Winter of her cane, turned her to stone, but otherwise it does kinda sound like MW.  (Found a more detailed version, when I went looking for the specific legend, instead of Celtic lore of 1065.)

Also, I did use www.Bing.com to find this.  Surprisingly, I find that it's a smidgen better at digging up some things.

[Arjan]

I immediately could only find a few historically important things of note (thing that I can relate directly to DF) that happened in 1060s Europe:
1063: The River Thames is frozen for 14 weeks. (Obviously something Wintery happened)
1066:
King of England dies, and New King (Harold) gets chosen by a council of old men.
Battle of Hastings, King Harold and all his brothers are killed and England gets taken over.
Dark Ages ends, Middle Ages begin.
End of the Viking Age in England.

That is all saxon, nothing irish.

And depending on your point of view the dark ages started at 1066.
A well organized saxon state was replaced by norman oppression and barbarism. The last remnants of civilization fled to Byzantium to join the varangian guard.