Cold Days Book Club - Chapters 45-53 **MAJOR SPOILERS**

[Arjan]

I have always figured that Papa Raith was one of the first infected.

I do not think he was. An infected papa Raith would have taken steps to ensure the white court stayed in infected hands even after his fall which could happen any moment. The outsider controlling him would have taken care of that. Arranging Lara's infection decades before she took over was a logical thing to do. Or it would have used the white court in some suicidal action to support the red court or something like that.

The white court did nothing for decades. Too long for an infection.

I think papa Raith made some deal with outsiders but was not infected. The ritual he used was bound to bring HWWB back at some time though.

[huangjimmy108]

When Sith asked what Harry' need to facilitates his job, Harry only asked a way to Chicago and a car. Had he asked 10.000 U.S. Dollars, an active credit card with no limit, a .44 revolver, a passable american ID and a wooden staff, do you think sith will provide it? What else do you think Harry could asked at the time?

[xakko]

When Sith asked what Harry' need to facilitates his job, Harry only asked a way to Chicago and a car. Had he asked 10.000 U.S. Dollars, an active credit card with no limit, a .44 revolver, a passable american ID and a wooden staff, do you think sith will provide it? What else do you think Harry could asked at the time?

and ask very nicely, or he'd get 10 thousand dollars from, say, a retiree's bank account, Johnny Marcone's credit card, an unloaded relic of a gun, ID for Marcone (again) and a music staff made of wood.

[huangjimmy108]

and ask very nicely, or he'd get 10 thousand dollars from, say, a retiree's bank account, Johnny Marcone's credit card, an unloaded relic of a gun, ID for Marcone (again) and a music staff made of wood.

It would be fun though. But seriously, some of those things I mention, like the gun for example could help Harry a lot had he asked for it. A few more weapons would be helpfull too. Sith would have certainly oblige. I even suspect, Mab might have prepared more resources for Harry's use than just a way to Chicago and a car, had Harry just asked for it.

[meg_evonne]

and ask very nicely, or he'd get 10 thousand dollars from, say, a retiree's bank account, Johnny Marcone's credit card, an unloaded relic of a gun, ID for Marcone (again) and a music staff made of wood.

LOL  consider coca=cola spewed all over my laptop. thanks!

[CZGoldEdition]

Oh goodness I hope not. I don't think I could handle reading about Molly getting vajazzled.

Popping into this thread to laugh endlessly over this mental image, in both amusement and horror.

[tuttman1234]

Popping into this thread to laugh endlessly over this mental image, in both amusement and horror.

Yeah, that's how I felt typing it. 

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

So overall. Not my favorite DF be definitely good novel.

Pluses:

1. Molly as a Winter Lady. Good God, that would turn into something really epic. Or erotic. Or both.
2. Cat Sith. I demand special short story about friend/foe cooperation of Cat Sith and Eldest Gruff.
3. Kringle!
4. Dresden leading The Wild Hunt.
5. Dresden's Mud Monkeys.
6. Fact that in the end Dresden finally didn't have to make great choice. Others decides final fates of Demonreach battle.
7. Outer Gates. Realization that if Venatori would sent fairies into Oblivion (of course assuming that every spirit of NN can be obliviate, not only some of them) the Outer Gates would make POP.
8. Butters and Andi
9. Toot-Toot and Lacuna

Minuses

1. Harry/Murphy - God, this off-on game is really, really to long. It gets boring. And that leads to second.
2. Basically not to CD but to all books. I mean I'm little bit tired with I have only two days to save the day (three if I'm lucky) routine. And almost all important things in development of relations between Team!Dresden members seems to happen just those days. I know technically CD is 4 months long, but well only technically.
3. He Who Walked Before. I mean Walkers should be three most powerful Outsiders with access to Nevernever and Mortal World. I'm not impressed.
4. Maeve begging for her mother interest. I mean OK it would be cool - but she was possesed by Nemesis. I mean when Cat Sith take hit it changes him, and he lost most of his personal interests. This Maeve was too-Maevish.
5. Ace. I never liked this guy.

Questions and Deliberations.

1. I have bit problem with whole Mantle-Dying thing. I mean in SK we learned (IIRC) from Mothers that when Knight or Queen dies his/her mantle goes to the closest Court Vessel. But on Demonreach both Molly and Sarissa were Winter Vessels. Why then Lily mantle goes to her? Shouldn't it find some Summer Vessel? I mean there were some Summer Sidhe with Lily, some of them has to be a girl, after all.
2. Molly as a Vessel. I mean hanging with Lea was enough to turn her into one? I thought that you have to be at least changeling?
3. Free will and soul. I suppose that Molly will remain mortal at least for some time. Lily also remain changeling after becoming a Lady, and she make her Choice some time later (because in SmF Dresden treats her as a full Sidhe). So there are still some interesting possibilities.
4. Why Mab didn't used her force to force Maeve to take medicine. I mean put two, or three or fifteen iron bullets in Sidhe knees and she shouldn't have much choice to do.
5. Parasite thing. If I remember correctly Dresden migraines started in Turn Coat. So i doubt somehow it was just remains of Lash. I suppose it was something else. Maybe even something knew. Therefore I believe that Lash was some of spirits Dresden meets in GS, and Lasciel was Fallen that push Dresden to his suicide.
6. Did Kringle kills Odin and took his mantle? Or maybe other way? Or maybe they were always two faces of the same being? Or maybe he was just giving Dresden more of well deserved mindfuck.
7. Did He Who Walks Before perished? He was killed in Samhain night, but after all he isn't being of our world.
8. Did third of Walkers name is He Who Walks Between? Maybe he is Nemesis (because he walks between people earlobes). It would fit - three most powerful of Outsiders - herold, assasin and mind-breaker.
9. What was Morgana deal with Outsiders? Or maybe athame was somehow infected by Cowl and Morgana has nothing to do with it?
10. So I think we can assume that Old Gods or Old Ones that are fought in Oblivion Wars are not Outsiders. Old Ones are just powerful spirits that needs human knowledge to keep stuck into mortal world. Bob called them "primal spiritual beings", so I assume they are creatures of Nevernever, and Oblivion is also place/state in NN. Outsiders are something different. Like those sad thing from first Pratchett novels.
11. What is difference between Immortal and Primal Spiritual Being? I assume that because PSB cannot be killed, only dispersed and forgotten that it's true. But Immortal can be killed - only it's extremely hard to do. So I assume Immortal technically is term for Secondary Spiritual Being. Someone who like Sidhe or at least some gods were human beings one upon a time, and ascend to become powerful spirits. (Maybe mantles are PSB, because they cannot be destroyed even on Halloween).

[Arjan]

4. Maeve begging for her mother interest. I mean OK it would be cool - but she was possesed by Nemesis. I mean when Cat Sith take hit it changes him, and he lost most of his personal interests. This Maeve was too-Maevish.

Which is logical. The outsider possession works much like normal mind magic the way peabody and molly use it. You build on what you have and apply the smallest change needed to get the results you want to achieve. Nemesis used the mommy issues Maeve had to get the ally she got so the Maeve we met was a full bag of mommy issues.

Nemesis tried something similar with Cat Sith but it did not work. When Harry told him to resist Cat Sith began to do exactly that much like Lea did and Nemesis had not the time to  play subtle so it took over.

But Cat Sith fought less effective because of that. Subtle gets a more effective tool.

1. I have bit problem with whole Mantle-Dying thing. I mean in SK we learned (IIRC) from Mothers that when Knight or Queen dies his/her mantle goes to the closest Court Vessel. But on Demonreach both Molly and Sarissa were Winter Vessels. Why then Lily mantle goes to her? Shouldn't it find some Summer Vessel? I mean there were some Summer Sidhe with Lily, some of them has to be a girl, after all.

Lilly was a winter changeling if I remember correctly. The first thing needed is the ability to handle power.

2. Molly as a Vessel. I mean hanging with Lea was enough to turn her into one? I thought that you have to be at least changeling?

Mab, The erlking, Kringle, ...

As far as we know now they all started as human. Becoming Fae is one of those things humans can do under the right circumstances.

3. Free will and soul. I suppose that Molly will remain mortal at least for some time. Lily also remain changeling after becoming a Lady, and she make her Choice some time later (because in SmF Dresden treats her as a full Sidhe). So there are still some interesting possibilities.

Becoming Sidhe does not imply you lose your soul immediately. It just opens a lot of new possibilities for it.

4. Why Mab didn't used her force to force Maeve to take medicine. I mean put two, or three or fifteen iron bullets in Sidhe knees and she shouldn't have much choice to do.

Mab needed Maeves cooperation to cure her. Lea wnted to be cured because she was ashamed to be possessed. Maeve did not have that motivation.

5. Parasite thing. If I remember correctly Dresden migraines started in Turn Coat. So i doubt somehow it was just remains of Lash. I suppose it was something else. Maybe even something knew. Therefore I believe that Lash was some of spirits Dresden meets in GS, and Lasciel was Fallen that push Dresden to his suicide.
6. Did Kringle kills Odin and took his mantle? Or maybe other way? Or maybe they were always two faces of the same being? Or maybe he was just giving Dresden more of well deserved mindfuck.

Krinngle and Odin are just the same person with two mantles, masks

9. What was Morgana deal with Outsiders? Or maybe athame was somehow infected by Cowl and Morgana has nothing to do with it?

I do not think Morgana had anything to do with the outsider taint on the athame except that she was the reason the athame was so powerful and desirable which made it the ideal tool for Cowl.

10. So I think we can assume that Old Gods or Old Ones that are fought in Oblivion Wars are not Outsiders. Old Ones are just powerful spirits that needs human knowledge to keep stuck into mortal world. Bob called them "primal spiritual beings", so I assume they are creatures of Nevernever, and Oblivion is also place/state in NN. Outsiders are something different. Like those sad thing from first Pratchett novels.
11. What is difference between Immortal and Primal Spiritual Being? I assume that because PSB cannot be killed, only dispersed and forgotten that it's true. But Immortal can be killed - only it's extremely hard to do. So I assume Immortal technically is term for Secondary Spiritual Being. Someone who like Sidhe or at least some gods were human beings one upon a time, and ascend to become powerful spirits. (Maybe mantles are PSB, because they cannot be destroyed even on Halloween).

You can kill the bearer of the mantle under certain circumstances but the mantle itself is not killed. A spiritual being is more like a mantle without a bearer. People like Odin and Mab still have bodies.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Lilly was a winter changeling if I remember correctly. The first thing needed is the ability to handle power.

Aye. But Lily was Summer Knight. So she definitely was a Summer Vessel in moment of Aurora death.

As far as we know now they all started as human. Becoming Fae is one of those things humans can do under the right circumstances.

Indeed. I just thought that those conditions would be more severe.

Becoming Sidhe does not imply you lose your soul immediately. It just opens a lot of new possibilities for it.

I have to check. I remember some fragment about changelings that they can go mortal, remain between or lose their souls and turn full Sidhe.

Mab needed Maeves cooperation to cure her. Lea wnted to be cured because she was ashamed to be possessed. Maeve did not have that motivation

Or - she needs working Winter Lady. And she needed her soon. If Maeve was much further in He Who Walks Between hands, it would take probably few years maybe decades to cure her. And all those time mantle of Lady would be useless.
It makes sense - if Mab just want to stop Maeve she could like rip her into pieces and it would take long, long time for Maeve to recover. But it would left Winter without Lady.
So even if Maeve would want to cure, Mab didn't have enough time for it. More tragic for Mab I suppose.

Krinngle and Odin are just the same person with two mantles, masks

I suppose it's the simplest explanation.

[Arjan]

Aye. But Lily was Summer Knight. So she definitely was a Summer Vessel in moment of Aurora death.

Indeed. I just thought that those conditions would be more severe.

I have to check. I remember some fragment about changelings that they can go mortal, remain between or lose their souls and turn full Sidhe.

Harry is a linear thinker. You either have a soul or you don't. But everything points to the fact that it is not that simple. It takes time to lose your soul. Even Mab does have some small bits left.

Or - she needs working Winter Lady. And she needed her soon. If Maeve was much further in He Who Walks Between hands, it would take probably few years maybe decades to cure her. And all those time mantle of Lady would be useless.
It makes sense - if Mab just want to stop Maeve she could like rip her into pieces and it would take long, long time for Maeve to recover. But it would left Winter without Lady.
So even if Maeve would want to cure, Mab didn't have enough time for it. More tragic for Mab I suppose.

I don't think so. Mab really wanted to cure Maeve but it just was not possible without her cooperation.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Harry is a linear thinker. You either have a soul or you don't. But everything points to the fact that it is not that simple. It takes time to lose your soul. Even Mab does have some small bits left.

Maybe. Or maybe losing soul don't necessarily leads to total dehumanisation. Some spirits who (except of Harry) are just born from memories and emotions acts like people, feel and hurt. If Mab was a mortal one day, then even if she lost her soul or destroy it to become Winter Queen - it still means she remember her former self. She remain her feelings, and memories, losing free will and consciousness. Little bit like vamps in BtVS, human soul was gone, demon was in, but character often remain the same.

I don't think so. Mab really wanted to cure Maeve but it just was not possible without her cooperation.

Maybe it was maybe it isn't. I mean even if to cure her like she cured Lea she would need cooperation, that doesn't mean that she have to kill Maeve. She could lock her or crush her so much that she wouldn't be a treat or useful pawn for Outsiders for long, long time. But Maeve told her that she need Winter Lady for things to come. And they will come relatively sooner than later.

[Mr. Death]

In regard to Molly being with Lea making her a vessel, there's a bit where, right after Harry meets with the Mothers, he takes a shower and specifically notes that he's doing it because that kind of interaction with a Fae leaves a mark on you that he wants to ground out and wash off with the shower. It's likely Molly didn't know to take that precaution.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

In regard to Molly being with Lea making her a vessel, there's a bit where, right after Harry meets with the Mothers, he takes a shower and specifically notes that he's doing it because that kind of interaction with a Fae leaves a mark on you that he wants to ground out and wash off with the shower. It's likely Molly didn't know to take that precaution.

I suppose if shower was enough to take it down, then the sunrise would be enough as well. Even if Molly didn't take shower few months after Harry's death. I suppose its rather master-scholar relationship.

[matolilyfu]

I suppose if shower was enough to take it down, then the sunrise would be enough as well. Even if Molly didn't take shower few months after Harry's death. I suppose its rather master-scholar relationship.

Remember in GS, Murphy urged Molly to stay at her house for a meal, "a shower"...  Surrendering hygiene can expose you to lots of things - who knew it could help turn you into a vessel of Winter?