Harry is Kemmler reborn

[peregrine]

Not anywhere near the same as d-e-a-d Dead, apparently.

Well, we don't know that, we have yet to see D-E-D dead people come back yet.  (Harry was just plain old dead, yes?)

The D-E-D Dead quote is from when someone asked Jim about either Justin or Kemmler, and he responded that they were D-E-D dead.  I don't know that he has gone on record as saying that Harry was D-E-D dead (or that it actually makes any kind of difference)

[SAZ]

I can’t buy that Harry is Kemmler reborn.

I can buy that Harry has a natural flare for necromancy that he has not yet admitted to himself.

If Harry was Kemmler, I think that Evil Bob would have recognized him as such and rather than the "Master would have liked you" lines, Evil Bob would have said something like “Master! Do you not know your true self? Let me help you remember… blah blah… then let’s plan WWIII… etc…”

Also Harry has been soul gazed by folks like Michael and Eb and met with approval. If Harry is Kemmler then Eb and Uriel’s team are all closet evil doers molding Harry waiting for him to remember his true self.

Also while being D.E.D. dead in GS, Harry had no I am Kemmler memory flash backs while thinking about and talking to Evil Bob and the Corpstaker. Yet when he first saw Karen he had a ton of unbidden Karen/Harry flash backs.

[rad]

Harry was only mostly dead.  There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. 
Every indication that we have is that Kemmler is all dead.  And sure, we shouldn't completely trust Jim but so far he hasn't outright lied to us either. 

[DragonEyes]

Harry was only mostly dead.  There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. 
Every indication that we have is that Kemmler is all dead.  And sure, we shouldn't completely trust Jim but so far he hasn't outright lied to us either.

Would you agree that Corpstaker was all dead or mostly dead?

[rad]

I think that Corpstaker was only mostly dead.  When Mort took her down Harry heard the south bound train.  Every time that a spirit has disappeared we have just seen them fall apart and the memories pop out.  The south bound train and angel of death are apparently for souls. 

[mattrox]

 I have to say shot in back of head is completely dead. Now in this series that does not bar you from making a come back it appears.

[Dust Bunny]

Also Harry has been soul gazed by folks like Michael and Eb and met with approval. If Harry is Kemmler then Eb and Uriel’s team are all closet evil doers molding Harry waiting for him to remember his true self.

This. Further, I would hazard a guess that Uriel can see whatever information a soul-gaze transmits without actually entering a soul-gaze.

[lunyboy]

I'm not seeing it.  Kravos' ghost is a bunch of memories, no soul involved, and Kravos is a sorcerer, not a wizard, so all Harry gets from it is a handful of pre-charged spells which we never see him use again after the end of GP, so it seems logical that they are all used up; no long-term effect at all sfaict.

We are told that Kemmler used this exact technique of devouring spirits (not souls) as fuel for his own power, and the more powerful the spirits, the more power he gets from it; all in service to exposition of his evil insanity. Each time it is brought up, by Bob, by Mort, by the Wardens or other figures in reference to Kemmler, we are told that the spirits are scared of him, he devours them, or they feed his power. The ascension rite itself is fueled by eating spirits.

And we have no evidence that there is no long term effects, one way or the other. Should Harry have long term access to the spells just because he devoured the spirit? I have no idea, but that doesn't mean that extra boost has gone away, nor the mark of the spirit-Kravos. I am not saying you're wrong, but it just bugged me then, and topic brought it all back up.

[TheCuriousFan]

I'm not seeing it.  Kravos' ghost is a bunch of memories, no soul involved, and Kravos is a sorcerer, not a wizard, so all Harry gets from it is a handful of pre-charged spells which we never see him use again after the end of GP, so it seems logical that they are all used up; no long-term effect at all sfaict.

The Nightmare was hoisted by his own
petard in the end: as he’d consumed Harry’s
power, Harry consumed him, entirely, regaining
his stolen talent…as well as Kravos’.

Between this and the comment about him having a lot more stains from black magic than from what he's done by the Loa back in DM I'd say he did keep the power.

Even though you dislike the rpg being used for quotes, I'd say Harry's probably a reliable source on the matter of whether or not he kept Kravos' power.

[Arjan]

Could someone explain D-E-D dead please? it is useed quite alot and the term isnt in the dictionary.

It is just emphasis I think. Screaming if you want to be less polite. You do these things if people are not listening.

It only tells you that the soul has left the body and not if it still has some options to get back or get another one. People never seem to ask Jim if someone is dead and departed. Moved on.

[Brightbane]

I'm not seeing it.  Kravos' ghost is a bunch of memories, no soul involved, and Kravos is a sorcerer, not a wizard, so all Harry gets from it is a handful of pre-charged spells which we never see him use again after the end of GP, so it seems logical that they are all used up; no long-term effect at all sfaict.

Yeah, but all of them are just a bunch of memories. Harry was an extremely rare case that still had his soul attached.

And on the d-e-d thing it's a cartoon reference I believe. Maybe the guy who hunted bugs bunny? He always spelled things out but spelled them wrong

[Arjan]

Yeah, but all of them are just a bunch of memories. Harry was an extremely rare case that still had his soul attached.

And on the d-e-d thing it's a cartoon reference I believe. Maybe the guy who hunted bugs bunny? He always spelled things out but spelled them wrong

Maybe rare but not extremely rare. Everything points to corpstaker as having a soul as well. Kemmler must have used the sa me trick as well.i think it is a path you can choose when you die in the dresdenverse. You might need knowledge, ability or opportunity but maybe not even that.

It could be the reason for ancestor worship. If your ancestors stay with the tribe and the tribe keeps remembering them they could be a source of spiritual power.

[Anthony]

We are told that Kemmler used this exact technique of devouring spirits (not souls) as fuel for his own power, and the more powerful the spirits, the more power he gets from it; all in service to exposition of his evil insanity.

We Also know that memories are important to ghosts. No more memories, no more ghost. When sir Stuart shot the ghost, he used memories as a bullet. And he got "energy" back from the remains of the ghost. If I recall correctly, Harry did something similar while being a ghost. The fact that you can do something similar does not make you Kemmler.

Besides, We have been speculating that Kemmler could jump bodies like Corpstaker. It seems far more likely that he jumped bodies before he died than that he somehow was reborn in another body without the memories, drive and desires. Simon for example was fighting him and could be one of the people he jumped into (his disappearance/death later being a great way for him to return to his old dealings). Then again this does not explain how Kemmler returned the first time. It would help a lot if we had more info on Kemmler (besides how he did it  ). Things as, Did the returned Kemmler have the same body? Was he helped with his return? Were certain items important in the returning process? etc...

So I do not believe that Harry is Kemmler reborn. Evil Bob would have recognised Harry as being him. But you and others make a valid point that the darkness in Harry must be explained somehow.

D-E-D dead is Jim emphasizing dead and being cute at the same time.

I might be mistaken, but isn't "Dead, D-E-D Dead" also a movie quote?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Between this and the comment about him having a lot more stains from black magic than from what he's done by the Loa back in DM I'd say he did keep the power.

Distinguishing the putative mark of Kravos from the independently confirmed mark of HWWB there seems kind of hard.

Even though you dislike the rpg being used for quotes, I'd say Harry's probably a reliable source on the matter of whether or not he kept Kravos' power.

If so, we've seen precious little allusion to it since.

[lunyboy]

We Also know that memories are important to ghosts. No more memories, no more ghost. When sir Stuart shot the ghost, he used memories as a bullet. And he got "energy" back from the remains of the ghost. If I recall correctly, Harry did something similar while being a ghost. The fact that you can do something similar does not make you Kemmler.

No, the thing that makes you similar is the choice to do it.

So I do not believe that Harry is Kemmler reborn. Evil Bob would have recognised Harry as being him. But you and others make a valid point that the darkness in Harry must be explained somehow.

Yeah, I am also unconvinced, but I can definitely see the plausibility with this compendium. I think it might be worth while to index and categorize the dark things he's done, now that we have a clearer picture of the altercation with Justin and HWWB.

I must admit that I am a bit more like Bob when it comes to the good vs. evil lines-in-the-sand on a per book basis, and would have to re-read the books JUST to inventory the questionable actions I gloss over ordinarily.