Blocking Magic Internally - Help

[Lavecki121]

I have said multiple times that this is not forced backlash. It is LIKE forced backlash in the way it affects their mind. I understand it is about narrative which is why I was trying to give everyone something to go on so that they could understand where I am comming from.

[Haru]

I was trying to give everyone something to go on so that they could understand where I am coming from.

But you aren't. Everything you are coming from is entirely from the mechanical side of things. Describe an attack as you see it work out. Without using things like shifts or backlash. If that makes sense, we can work from there.

On a side note:
Going from most of Harry's descriptions about him casting spells, it seems to me that it is far more a physical than a mental thing. For the game mechanics though, it makes sense to put casting stress on a different track, since a wizard would be killing himself, if he was casting spells, taking away what little physical stress he can take. The mental stress track is a good candidate for that.
If you don't want to add a "magic" track, similar to hunger. Which might not be the worst thing, now that I think about it. After all, it's just something to keep the wizard from being able to

Even the consequences Harry suggests somewhere in the book, like "seeing purple" sound much more physical to me than mental. It's something that could happen if you overexercise, and has nothing to do with your mental state.

For me, mental things would be something like an opponent shaking my resolve by taunting me before a fight. A pretty girl flirting with me in a bar to play with my mind. A loved one dying in my arms. Being the victim of torture. If those things happen to me, then yes, that will probably leave some mental scarring. Sometimes it might not be much and I shrug it off, sometimes it will lead to a consequence. But all the same, that comes from outside. Now if you want to inflict that same "damage" onto me as those kinds of situation might do, but from the inside and by your own magic, then that is going to leave a mark on you as well. Hence lawbreaker.

The major problem, I repeat, is the mixing of conflicts. If you are in a physical conflict, deal physical stress. Or, if you don't want to do that, for whatever reason, change the pace. Turn the physical conflict into a mental one, I've proposed a way to do so as well. Otherwise, things will just become too complicated on a number of levels.

[Lavecki121]

But you aren't. Everything you are coming from is entirely from the mechanical side of things. Describe an attack as you see it work out. Without using things like shifts or backlash. If that makes sense, we can work from there.

I will do my best on this: In an attempt to overcharge and drain his opponent Jimmy uses an attack that will inject spiritual energy into his opponent. With a few quick light touches, he injects the energy into what he believes to be focal points for spiritual energies, in an attempt to disrupt them.

If this is not what you are looking for then I'm confused as to what the narative side is and clearly cant convey that to you.

Even the consequences Harry suggests somewhere in the book, like "seeing purple" sound much more physical to me than mental. It's something that could happen if you overexercise, and has nothing to do with your mental state.

I believe this is a little of both. The reason you are seeing purple is because your brain isnt getting enough oxygen because it is using that oxygen for your other muscles. Its a combination of mental and physical.

For me, mental things would be something like an opponent shaking my resolve by taunting me before a fight. A pretty girl flirting with me in a bar to play with my mind.

I believe these are social things

A loved one dying in my arms. Being the victim of torture. If those things happen to me, then yes, that will probably leave some mental scarring. Sometimes it might not be much and I shrug it off, sometimes it will lead to a consequence. But all the same, that comes from outside. Now if you want to inflict that same "damage" onto me as those kinds of situation might do, but from the inside and by your own magic, then that is going to leave a mark on you as well. Hence lawbreaker.

Yes, but I am using the same justification as magic so, in my oppinion, its moot.

The major problem, I repeat, is the mixing of conflicts. If you are in a physical conflict, deal physical stress. Or, if you don't want to do that, for whatever reason, change the pace. Turn the physical conflict into a mental one, I've proposed a way to do so as well. Otherwise, things will just become too complicated on a number of levels.
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[Tedronai]

I will do my best on this: In an attempt to overcharge and drain his opponent Jimmy uses an attack that will inject spiritual energy into his opponent. With a few quick light touches, he injects the energy into what he believes to be focal points for spiritual energies, in an attempt to disrupt them.

Okay.  This could use a little bit more detail, but it's workable.  Of course, 'overcharge and drain' isn't what I would call definitive of an attack inflicting mental stress.  Maybe that part is in the 'more detail'?

I believe this is a little of both. The reason you are seeing purple is because your brain isnt getting enough oxygen because it is using that oxygen for your other muscles. Its a combination of mental and physical.

That all sounds physical to me.  Just because it involves the brain doesn't mean it's mental.

I believe these are social things

The difference between mental and social is often one of wording.  (Being distraced would be mental, while being seen to be distracted is social.)

Yes, but I am using the same justification as magic so, in my oppinion, its moot.

And yet reading your own mind, transforming yourself, and even killing yourself through the use of magic is not Lawbreaking.

[Lavecki121]

Okay.  This could use a little bit more detail, but it's workable.  Of course, 'overcharge and drain' isn't what I would call definitive of an attack inflicting mental stress.  Maybe that part is in the 'more detail'?

I am using a narative spin that you all want me to use. I have already given my MECHANICAL reasoning behind it and what it does MECHANICALLY. Just because I cant NARATIVLY describe it in a way that you all want does not make the attack wrong or not working in the way that you view it. I understand that this game is a NARATIVE game, yet when making things one must look at the MECHANICAL side of it or else you will never be able to make anything. Every power, every stunt, every attack has a MECHANICAL side, even if the NARATIVE varies between users.

That all sounds physical to me.  Just because it involves the brain doesn't mean it's mental.

I didnt make the game. Talk to the guys at Evil Hat.

The difference between mental and social is often one of wording.  (Being distraced would be mental, while being seen to be distracted is social.)

I dont get the difference. If someone distracts me and its internal thats supposed to be mental but if I show it openly thats social? Thats more confusing than a physical attack doing mental stress. At least mine has mechanical justification (which apparently doesnt matter so nevermind).

And yet reading your own mind, transforming yourself, and even killing yourself through the use of magic is not Lawbreaking.

And yet, I am not doing any of those things to the target.


EDIT: I may have overreacted. I am just getting frusturated. I appologize

[Taran]

Even the consequences Harry suggests somewhere in the book, like "seeing purple" sound much more physical to me than mental. It's something that could happen if you overexercise, and has nothing to do with your mental state.

This is description.  He may be seeing an aura.  The backlash has made him sensitive to those, usually, invisible energies.  Kind of the spiritual version of what happens to your ears after listening to loud music: psychic tinitus.

The major problem, I repeat, is the mixing of conflicts. If you are in a physical conflict, deal physical stress. Or, if you don't want to do that, for whatever reason, change the pace. Turn the physical conflict into a mental one, I've proposed a way to do so as well. Otherwise, things will just become too complicated on a number of levels.

I'm going to point you back to Addictive saliva that uses a fists attack to deliver mental damage.

I'd like to add, Haru, that I loved your suggestion of tagging an aspect and entering a separate, mental, conflict.  Unfortunately, it doesn't really fit the theme of the character.

I'll have a go at a description that fits Lavecki's criteria - I have an idea...I just have to think about it some more.

[Tedronai]

I am using a narative spin that you all want me to use. I have already given my MECHANICAL reasoning behind it and what it does MECHANICALLY. Just because I cant NARATIVLY describe it in a way that you all want does not make the attack wrong or not working in the way that you view it. I understand that this game is a NARATIVE game, yet when making things one must look at the MECHANICAL side of it or else you will never be able to make anything. Every power, every stunt, every attack has a MECHANICAL side, even if the NARATIVE varies between users.

If what you're really after is the mechanical effect of mental stress, I'd be glad to help you come up with the narrative descriptions of several attacks that would suit that effect.  The objections you are receiving (from me, at least) are derived primarily from the disconnect between your descriptions and the mechanics you have chosen to represent them.

I dont get the difference. If someone distracts me and its internal thats supposed to be mental but if I show it openly thats social? Thats more confusing than a physical attack doing mental stress. At least mine has mechanical justification (which apparently doesnt matter so nevermind).

Being seen to be distracted doesn't require you to be actually distracted.  The problems it causes for you are derived from how people react to you, believing that you are distracted.
Actually being distracted doesn't require that those around you perceive your distraction.  The problems that it causes for you are derived from the information that you fail to perceive while you are focused on the object of your distraction.

And yet, I am not doing any of those things to the target.

I was pointing out the difference between doing something to yourself (such as taking mental stress/consequences as a byproduct of spellcasting) and doing something to someone else (invading their mind in a traumatic and harmful manner).  One is Lawbreaking, the other is just dangerous

[Lavecki121]

If what you're really after is the mechanical effect of mental stress, I'd be glad to help you come up with the narrative descriptions of several attacks that would suit that effect.  The objections you are receiving (from me, at least) are derived primarily from the disconnect between your descriptions and the mechanics you have chosen to represent them.

I dont feel that they are. I am pushing in a spirit spell that invades the magic users system causing an effect akin to if they had miscast their own spell. Is that better?

Being seen to be distracted doesn't require you to be actually distracted.  The problems it causes for you are derived from how people react to you, believing that you are distracted. Actually being distracted doesn't require that those around you perceive your distraction.  The problems that it causes for you are derived from the information that you fail to perceive while you are focused on the object of your distraction.

So basically, my social character designed to distract you hasnt actually distracted you because he is attacking your social stress but not your mental stress?

[Haru]

Like Tedronai said, those examples can me mental and social, and it depends on what purpose they serve. That is decided when entering the conflict.
In the examples, I could get into a mental conflict with my opponent, snarking and intimidating each other, to make him less confident in himself when the actual fight starts.
Or, if he and I are the leaders of a group, the initial snark could be intended not to shake the opponents confidence, but his status among his peers. It would be the exact same conflict with the exact same rolls, but it would be social stress instead, because the focus of the scene is different.

The same goes for the girl in the bar. Let's say she's a friend of my ex, who wants to hurt me, because I dumped her friend. This would be a mental conflict.
If, on the other hand, her plan was to humiliate me as revenge, make me act like a fool in a bar I visit frequently, it would become a social conflict. Again, the exact same rolls, the exact same scene, but on a different stress track.

I am using a narative spin that you all want me to use. I have already given my MECHANICAL reasoning behind it and what it does MECHANICALLY. Just because I cant NARATIVLY describe it in a way that you all want does not make the attack wrong or not working in the way that you view it. I understand that this game is a NARATIVE game, yet when making things one must look at the MECHANICAL side of it or else you will never be able to make anything. Every power, every stunt, every attack has a MECHANICAL side, even if the NARATIVE varies between users.

Yes, but you are still putting the cart before the donkey here. Different narrative descriptions can be pooled into the same mechanics (and vice versa). That does not mean, that it is a good idea to start with a mechanic and wrap the narrative around it. It will almost always be wonky at best.

I will do my best on this: In an attempt to overcharge and drain his opponent Jimmy uses an attack that will inject spiritual energy into his opponent. With a few quick light touches, he injects the energy into what he believes to be focal points for spiritual energies, in an attempt to disrupt them.

It's not the best, but it'll do for now. I agree with Tedronai, this is pretty disconnected from what you are trying to do mechanically. As a magically enhanced martial arts attack, a physical attack, this would be just fine. As a mental attack? I just don't see it, sorry.

Besides that, I believe that conflicts should stick to one type and only involve the others as maneuvers. I don't know if it says so outright in the books, but I believe it is at least implied, when they talk about setting up a scene. This is one of the problems I have with your idea, that it crosses this line. What happens, when a wizard is taken out mentally by your attacks? He will still fight you physically, since he is not taken out there. You would be fighting two separate conflicts at once, that just don't go well together.


I just had another idea of how to make this work. Kind of mix and matching a lot of ideas that have been there before.
An anti-magic grapple.
Works just like a normal grapple, using fists instead of might. Since it involves shifting magical energies around, it should probably be at least a -1 power to allow it, instead of just a stunt. Here's how it works:
1. Put up a maneuver on the target, just like you would for a normal grapple (for example "blocked chi")
2. Invoke that maneuver to enter a grapple. This will however not be a real, physical grapple, it will be a magical one, meaning it blocks only magical actions.
3. Each subsequent exchange, you roll fists to keep up your anti-magic-grapple.
Standard grapple rules apply. That means you can inflict 1 shift of physical stress as a supplemental action, each time you roll to renew that grapple.

So with the maneuver, you strike the target and shove the first batch of energy into it, preparing to cut him off from his power. After that, you strike the focus points again, charging them with even more raw energy, overloading your targets systems. Slightly altering your strikes, you can make the overload so painful, that he will eventually black out from the pain. You could even use that pain to force your target to move in a certain direction (the "move your target one zone" action of the grapple rules).

So, what do you think?

[Taran]

This is an excellent way of doing it.  And it slowly eats one box at a time, which gradually makes spellcasting more risky.

Does it really require a stunt?  By the rules of grappling, any kind of grapple could be justified, depending on the attack...there's that side bar.  Wouldn't this be an example of a different kind of grapple?

[Haru]

This is an excellent way of doing it.  And it slowly eats one box at a time, which gradually makes spellcasting more risky.

It should still be physical stress, not mental, I think.

Does it really require a stunt?  By the rules of grappling, any kind of grapple could be justified, depending on the attack...there's that side bar.  Wouldn't this be an example of a different kind of grapple?

Well, since it involves shoving the powers of creation up someone else's chakras, I'd say it should be a -1 power. Since the original idea involved channeling, it actually frees up 1 point of refresh.

[Lavecki121]

I think that works, I actually had a discussion about it with Addicted2aa IRL. I think someone else said that this would be impossible when it was suggested earlier. The fact that it is physical stress doesnt really bother me because it kind of is physical stress that he would be dealing anyway, and 1 stress makes sense because he is doing very light taps.

However, just going back for a moment, I wasnt finding a mechanic and wraping narrative around it. I was giving narrative and placing a mechanical justification for it. However y'all didnt like my justification and kept focusing on that. But I digress.

I do like the grapple idea though. It works better with the original idea of the attack. I dont think that I should have to take a stunt or a power though because I have already spent 3 points towards being able to do this.

[Taran]

I mean, considering a normal grapple does physical damage and prevents ALL actions, including magic already, it doesn't really make sense to make it a separate power.  Maybe just the stunt to use fists instead instead of might.

I don't know.  I like the idea of a mental grapple that only stops spellcasting.  Seems cooler.

Edit:  If you consider that he can ONLY block spells, then I think it's probably not worth another refresh.

[Lavecki121]

Would it be narratively appropriate to have it as a reskinned grapple because I am hitting pressure points? Basically a grapple that requires fists to work instead of might (in this case I would be willing to take a stunt). Thus I am blocking all of thier moves by disabling their muscles.

Thoughts?

[Haru]

I would require a -1 power, but if the character already had channeling(spirit) or full evocation, I'd let him do it through that. Though the maneuver to tag should be a spell type thing.

Would it be narratively appropriate to have it as a reskinned grapple because I am hitting pressure points? Basically a grapple that requires fists to work instead of might (in this case I would be willing to take a stunt). Thus I am blocking all of thier moves by disabling their muscles.

That's exactly, what I was proposing, yes.