Author Topic: Blocking Magic Internally - Help  (Read 32495 times)

Offline Taran

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Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
« Reply #90 on: November 26, 2012, 11:06:33 PM »
About the maneuver idea: I'd let a BLINDED Aspect Compel prevent one attack or set one defence to Mediocre. Maybe more than one. But your proposal seems to be scene-long. That's just too much.
people out.

I never proposed scene long.  I proposed it work like a maneuver:  If you succeed by more than one shift, it's sticky, if not it last one exchange.

I would never do a scene long compel on a maneuver.  I'd do a compel for as long as the maneuver lasts, which could be the full scene if no-one takes efforts to remove it.

Offline Lavecki121

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Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
« Reply #91 on: November 26, 2012, 11:15:28 PM »
About inflicting mental stress: The issues are
1. It's overpowered
2. It doesn't actually do much to stop spellcasting
and
3. Its narrative appropriateness is questionable given the description provided.
Also there was some weird thing about a special kind of stress which can't take people out.

Ok so 1. What makes it more overpowered than attacking physical stress track. If anything it balances out because they can defend with higher abilities as opposed to defending with ones that they might have as throw aways.

2. It does something. It may not stop them completely but it makes them reconsider doing bigger moves because they have less stress to spend on it.

3. Naratively it does make sense. I am flooding their system with magic which would affect them mentally as is shown by when they use magic it hits their mental stress track.

Also where is that last part. If you could find it for me that would be appreciated.

I honestly dont see why it is such a reach for this attack to attack mental stress. If the problem is that I am casting with fists, I had to take a -2 power to do that. I dont see this as being overpowered or out of the realms of posiblility.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
« Reply #92 on: November 26, 2012, 11:39:22 PM »
Ok so 1. What makes it more overpowered than attacking physical stress track. If anything it balances out because they can defend with higher abilities as opposed to defending with ones that they might have as throw aways.
Most characters just aren't set up for mental defense. So you're proposing being able to directly attack what's almost always going to be a weak spot with what's likely an apex skill for your own character.

Speaking as someone who has a player playing a character with Deceit at 5, and Incite Emotion (Potent Emotion) in one of his games, every monster out there is a lot less scary when their defense changes from 5 with a 6 box stress track and Armor:1 to rolling from 1 with a 2-box stress track. I have had legions of ghouls Despair'ed to death.
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Offline Taran

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Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
« Reply #93 on: November 27, 2012, 12:10:33 AM »
@ mr. death.

1. most wizards don't have a toughness power
2. Their mental stress track is their best track and they likely have extra milds
3. They are defending with their apex skill: discipline.

So I don't see it as being Over Powered.  It is actually more advantageous to attack their physical track, I would think and force them to defend with endurance or athletics. 

It's true that the OP is is attacking with an apex skill.  If he was a wizard doing a mental evocation, it would also be using his apex skill, so it doesn't really make a difference that he's attacking with fists.

Once again, since he's suggesting it work on casters only, I might require that there be some kind of tag of the targets magic casting Aspect (usually the High Concept).  Or at least require an assessment to discover it.

Offline sinker

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Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
« Reply #94 on: November 27, 2012, 12:23:05 AM »
To be honest, I've only ever found mental attacks to be mildly overpowered. Most of the things that are supposed to be tough (like Sue) could probably invoke their high concept to be immune. That being said, things that are more self aware (like ghouls) do go down way easier that way. It is a bit overpowered Lavecki, take it from people who have tried it.

The main issue that I see with it though is simply the narrative weirdness of not hitting someone and still achieving your goal. One of the things that you have to understand in fate conflicts is that a successful attack may still completely miss. Stress is just energy expended avoiding an attack (or casting a spell, or whatever). If you haven't inflicted a consequence then you haven't even hit your target. Even if you do inflict a consequence, you still may not hit. I can flavor the consequence to be a result of escaping your attack. That's how we wind up with consequences like "sprained ankle" when you're shooting a gun at me.

So really, I just find it wonky that you could fail to connect with your target physically, but then still influence them in exactly the way you were trying to. Wonkyness happens when you mix physical and mental actions.

Offline sinker

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Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
« Reply #95 on: November 27, 2012, 12:43:20 AM »
Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm a little surprised that no one has brought up the fourth law yet. I mean wizards cast using their being as fuel, yes? Their emotions, thoughts, inclinations? Isn't altering that against the fourth law? Even moving away from the DV throughout the Asian mythos, chi attacks that alter in such a way are invariably considered wrong or evil.

Offline Taran

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Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
« Reply #96 on: November 27, 2012, 01:16:33 AM »
The main issue that I see with it though is simply the narrative weirdness of not hitting someone and still achieving your goal. One of the things that you have to understand in fate conflicts is that a successful attack may still completely miss. Stress is just energy expended avoiding an attack (or casting a spell, or whatever). If you haven't inflicted a consequence then you haven't even hit your target. Even if you do inflict a consequence, you still may not hit. I can flavor the consequence to be a result of escaping your attack. That's how we wind up with consequences like "sprained ankle" when you're shooting a gun at me.

Once again, I don't like this argument.  It makes WCV's useless.  The point of Lasting Emotion is to inflict consequences so that the Vamp can tag/compel victims in later scenes and feed.  I think it goes against RAI if you just say, "well, I can choose any consequence I want and therfore I'm going to choose something that screws over the baddie".  Also, the GM is making the choices for the NPC's.  IF the GM and the player have an agreement that this specific Rote is designed to attack a casters magic, then he'd be a bit of an ass to always make victims of an attack take consequences that are not in flavour of the attack.  I mean, what's the point of having 5 elements, when targets are just going to choose consequences like, sprained ankle, bashed head etc..that have nothing to do with the element in question?  IF I'm shooting someone with a "crushing despair" spirit attack, I'm expecting a consequence that will be in line with that narrative.  Otherwise it's just a crap-shoot and I might as well have Hit Points.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm a little surprised that no one has brought up the fourth law yet. I mean wizards cast using their being as fuel, yes? Their emotions, thoughts, inclinations? Isn't altering that against the fourth law? Even moving away from the DV throughout the Asian mythos, chi attacks that alter in such a way are invariably considered wrong or evil.

Actually someone mentionned it earlier, very briefly.  There's potential - especially in the case of a take-out and aspect change.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
« Reply #97 on: November 27, 2012, 02:19:30 AM »
Once again, I don't like this argument.  It makes WCV's useless.  The point of Lasting Emotion is to inflict consequences so that the Vamp can tag/compel victims in later scenes and feed.  I think it goes against RAI if you just say, "well, I can choose any consequence I want and therfore I'm going to choose something that screws over the baddie".  Also, the GM is making the choices for the NPC's.  IF the GM and the player have an agreement that this specific Rote is designed to attack a casters magic, then he'd be a bit of an ass to always make victims of an attack take consequences that are not in flavour of the attack.  I mean, what's the point of having 5 elements, when targets are just going to choose consequences like, sprained ankle, bashed head etc..that have nothing to do with the element in question?  IF I'm shooting someone with a "crushing despair" spirit attack, I'm expecting a consequence that will be in line with that narrative.  Otherwise it's just a crap-shoot and I might as well have Hit Points.

Whether a character suffers a Consequence is wholly in the hands of that character's player.  The nature of any Consequence suffered is primarily in the hands of the victim's player subject to the approval of the table as a whole.
This is a byproduct of one of the core features of DFrpg, that being the concept of narrative control.
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Offline Taran

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Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
« Reply #98 on: November 27, 2012, 02:35:16 AM »
The nature of any Consequence suffered is primarily in the hands of the victim's player subject to the approval of the table as a whole.

This.

This is why sinkers argument that mental attack can be other than a mental attack wouldn't fly.  Maybe for one attack it might be justifiable.  More than that, though, most tables are going to call foul.

I like how consequences are done in Dfrpg and I like narrative control, but there is more than one person in the pilot seat.

There are powers in the book that are based on the fact that consequences will give the wielder of those powers a long-term advantage.  I don't think that a table would or should undermine that fact, otherwise those powers aren't worth the refresh spent on them.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
« Reply #99 on: November 27, 2012, 03:03:56 AM »
I never proposed scene long.  I proposed it work like a maneuver:  If you succeed by more than one shift, it's sticky, if not it last one exchange.

I would never do a scene long compel on a maneuver.  I'd do a compel for as long as the maneuver lasts, which could be the full scene if no-one takes efforts to remove it.

I see. I misunderstood. That could actually work.

Ok so 1. What makes it more overpowered than attacking physical stress track. If anything it balances out because they can defend with higher abilities as opposed to defending with ones that they might have as throw aways.

2. It does something. It may not stop them completely but it makes them reconsider doing bigger moves because they have less stress to spend on it.

3. Naratively it does make sense. I am flooding their system with magic which would affect them mentally as is shown by when they use magic it hits their mental stress track.

Also where is that last part. If you could find it for me that would be appreciated.

I honestly dont see why it is such a reach for this attack to attack mental stress. If the problem is that I am casting with fists, I had to take a -2 power to do that. I dont see this as being overpowered or out of the realms of posiblility.

1. You know the Power All Creatures Are Equal Before God? 3-4 Refresh, +1 FP/use? Mental stress does almost everything it does. Ignoring worn armour is good for a small stress boost, ignoring Toughness and Recovery and Immunity and physical enchanted armour makes a mockery of durable opponents. Hitting Discipline and Conviction instead of Athletics and Endurance is usually also a perk.

2. It does something, but not much. I can still cast normally after being hit with your anti-casting effect. Just not as many times.

3. It's debatable. That narration sounds okay to me, the old pressure point one doesn't.

4. Reply 20.

5. Basically, mental stress is much more powerful than physical stress. And Evocation already one-shots people all over the place. I'm speaking from experience when I say that against mental evocations every character is made of tissue paper. (Except for Crafters who bought mental defence items, and people using custom Powers.)

6. Did you pay 2 Refresh just to control spells with Fists? Sounds like a ripoff to me.

@ mr. death.

1. most wizards don't have a toughness power
2. Their mental stress track is their best track and they likely have extra milds
3. They are defending with their apex skill: discipline.

So I don't see it as being Over Powered.  It is actually more advantageous to attack their physical track, I would think and force them to defend with endurance or athletics. 

It's true that the OP is is attacking with an apex skill.  If he was a wizard doing a mental evocation, it would also be using his apex skill, so it doesn't really make a difference that he's attacking with fists.

Once again, since he's suggesting it work on casters only, I might require that there be some kind of tag of the targets magic casting Aspect (usually the High Concept).  Or at least require an assessment to discover it.

It's almost never a good idea to balance overpowered things with stuff like "only against spellcasters". This is a good example of why.

As you move upwards in the game's power scale, you'll see more and more characters rocking Toughness and spellcasting. Sometimes they'll be casters with Items Of Power or some other trick, like some of my current PCs. Sometimes they'll be physical monsters with spellcasting Powers, like elder Red Court vamps and skinwalkers. This suggestion dooms them all to one-hit-kills, and makes it so that spellcasting is seriously worth negative Refresh for many characters.

And anyway wizard fights are deadly enough as is.

To be honest, I've only ever found mental attacks to be mildly overpowered. Most of the things that are supposed to be tough (like Sue) could probably invoke their high concept to be immune. That being said, things that are more self aware (like ghouls) do go down way easier that way. It is a bit overpowered Lavecki, take it from people who have tried it.

The main issue that I see with it though is simply the narrative weirdness of not hitting someone and still achieving your goal. One of the things that you have to understand in fate conflicts is that a successful attack may still completely miss. Stress is just energy expended avoiding an attack (or casting a spell, or whatever). If you haven't inflicted a consequence then you haven't even hit your target. Even if you do inflict a consequence, you still may not hit. I can flavor the consequence to be a result of escaping your attack. That's how we wind up with consequences like "sprained ankle" when you're shooting a gun at me.

So really, I just find it wonky that you could fail to connect with your target physically, but then still influence them in exactly the way you were trying to. Wonkyness happens when you mix physical and mental actions.

Broken stuff like Invoking your High Concept to become immune to attack can keep other broken stuff in check, I guess.

Stress can be an actual hit, it just doesn't have to be.

I like how consequences are done in Dfrpg and I like narrative control, but there is more than one person in the pilot seat.

There are powers in the book that are based on the fact that consequences will give the wielder of those powers a long-term advantage.  I don't think that a table would or should undermine that fact, otherwise those powers aren't worth the refresh spent on them.

Which Powers are you talking about? I really can't think of any.

Anyway, taking someone out with Incite Emotion is easy because it's mental stress. So if you want a long term advantage, take them out and dictate whatever you like.

Oh, and with respect to your previous post...extra elements are pretty useless. Spirit does everything.

Offline Taran

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Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
« Reply #100 on: November 27, 2012, 03:48:05 AM »
Which Powers are you talking about? I really can't think of any.

Anyway, taking someone out with Incite Emotion is easy because it's mental stress. So if you want a long term advantage, take them out and dictate whatever you like.

Reply # 68 which is the description of lasting emotion.  Read it carefully.  It explicitely says why you do mental damage and what the the flavouring of the consequences are intended to do:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,34836.msg1671966.html#msg1671966

So now that the WCV has inflicted a mild consequence of "turned on", the victim will be more likely to want to stay close to them.  The fact that they've inflicted a moderate of "Dying to have sex with them again"  can be compelled to have that victim come back a second time so the WCV can feed off the victim again and again.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 03:52:16 AM by Taran »

Offline Lavecki121

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Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
« Reply #101 on: November 27, 2012, 03:53:04 AM »
1. You know the Power All Creatures Are Equal Before God? 3-4 Refresh, +1 FP/use? Mental stress does almost everything it does. Ignoring worn armour is good for a small stress boost, ignoring Toughness and Recovery and Immunity and physical enchanted armour makes a mockery of durable opponents. Hitting Discipline and Conviction instead of Athletics and Endurance is usually also a perk.

2. It does something, but not much. I can still cast normally after being hit with your anti-casting effect. Just not as many times.

3. It's debatable. That narration sounds okay to me, the old pressure point one doesn't.

4. Reply 20.

5. Basically, mental stress is much more powerful than physical stress. And Evocation already one-shots people all over the place. I'm speaking from experience when I say that against mental evocations every character is made of tissue paper. (Except for Crafters who bought mental defence items, and people using custom Powers.)

6. Did you pay 2 Refresh just to control spells with Fists? Sounds like a ripoff to me.

1. Didn't you design a power that allowed for mental immunity? Why bother create this power if you didnt think anybody was going to use it. Also if I had a character who did Incite emotions, would you really be debating it as much?
2. Thats kind of the point.
3. Yea the old one was how it was originally thought of but as I thought of it more this is what I went with. Basically the attack is forcing them to take backlash.
6. The power let me do a couple things. Moved Discipline to Endurance, Conviction to Fists and something else that I cant remember right now.

Also as far as this attack goes, let me see if I can reword this attack so that everyone understands what I am trying to do.

I want to attack an opponent with my fists and imbue them with my magic, basically forcing them to take backlash. I feel now that this could be done to any person, regardless of if they were a caster or not.  Now, since it is a fist attack, it could be defended against by athletics and the like, but it is also a magic attack so it could be defended with dicipline and stuff like that as well. I dont feel that it should ignore any armor, because it is a fist attack. A fireball doesnt ignore armor, why should this attack. The thing is that I am targeting their mental stress. I dont think of it as a psychic attack and thus bypasses everything that they can defend with. Its end result simply would hit the mental stress track.

I see this argument coming up again.
The main issue that I see with it though is simply the narrative weirdness of not hitting someone and still achieving your goal. One of the things that you have to understand in fate conflicts is that a successful attack may still completely miss. Stress is just energy expended avoiding an attack (or casting a spell, or whatever). If you haven't inflicted a consequence then you haven't even hit your target. Even if you do inflict a consequence, you still may not hit. I can flavor the consequence to be a result of escaping your attack. That's how we wind up with consequences like "sprained ankle" when you're shooting a gun at me.

But it could still be argued that the attack (even if it doesnt connect) still scared them in such a way to inflict mental stress. I dont feel that it takes away from the game because if you have a good game group you are all under the impression of what each character is trying to acomplish and what will eventually happen when they take stress. I can argue that I take mental stress and my consequence is "sprained ankle" because I got scared and tripped. But that is still a taggable/ invokable aspect because it has weakened you in some way.

I thank everyone for their help.

Offline Taran

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Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
« Reply #102 on: November 27, 2012, 04:00:36 AM »
Sorry Levecki, but I just wanted to add some more  :P


@ Sanctaphrax:  RCV's addictive saliva does the same thing as WCV attack...have a read:

YS162

"Alternatively, you may make a Fists
attack
—setting aside any damage bonus you
might have—to inflict mental stress instead
of physical stress.


Any consequences resulting
from such an attack represent the more
lasting effects of the venom—if you score a
moderate consequence
or worse, or if you
take your target out, you’ve really gotten your
hooks into him (see below
).


Typically, however, this saliva is administered
out of combat—usually with an act of
intimacy (kissing) or unintentional ingestion
(spiking the punch). Roll Deceit with
a +2 bonus against the victim’s Discipline.
This is considered a “consequential contest”
(see page 193); if you win, you inflict a relevant
consequence (usually Addicted) on the
victim, severity determined by the contest.
Addicts are in pretty bad shape when
dealing with you—you don’t even need to
spend fate points to take advantage of this.
You get to tag (see page 106) their addiction
aspect every time you enter a new scene with
your new victim/pal, making it very easy to
gain—and keep—the upper hand."


You'll notice too that RCV uses FISTS to do MENTAL STRESS.  Sorry, now that I read this it sounds like I'm being an ass.  I'm actually just trying to point out the relevant parts. 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 04:13:47 AM by Taran »

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
« Reply #103 on: November 27, 2012, 07:39:01 AM »
For the most part, I've said my piece, and don't particularly feel like repeating myself yet again, but I do have a comment or two remaining on recent arguments.

1. Didn't you design a power that allowed for mental immunity? Why bother create this power if you didnt think anybody was going to use it.
Custom powers are in the realm of houserules.  Typically, discussions such as these assume as little as possible where houserules are concerned.  If your game is making use of houserules that you feel might be relevant, making those houserules readily apparent in the thread is integral to receiving constructive feedback.

Also if I had a character who did Incite emotions, would you really be debating it as much?
Personally, I likely would not be debating the narrative description of your attack in that case unless you specified that the narrative description of your Incite power was different from the standard.  Somehow I suspect that it would be, and that, as a result, little here would change.

3. Yea the old one was how it was originally thought of but as I thought of it more this is what I went with. Basically the attack is forcing them to take backlash.
This is very much different from your original approach, and while I still have some reservations, it is a substantial improvement.

A fireball doesnt ignore armor, why should this attack. The thing is that I am targeting their mental stress. I dont think of it as a psychic attack and thus bypasses everything that they can defend with. Its end result simply would hit the mental stress track.
Even mundane attacks can sometimes ignore armour if the armour is not designed with that sort of attack in mind (a conventional kevlar vest will do little to stop a knife, for example).
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Offline Thrakkesh

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Re: Blocking Magic Internally - Help
« Reply #104 on: November 27, 2012, 07:52:53 AM »
It's worth pointing out that the cost of that little power with addictive Saliva is a Hunger track..  Not an insubstantial cost for that little trick. You might get an extremely powerful ability, but you pay for it.