Author Topic: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format  (Read 15936 times)

Offline Mrmdubois

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Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #60 on: November 10, 2012, 06:45:20 PM »
Sanctaphrax does fall outside of the "normal" range of what is interesting to players about games.  As such he does fall into a fifth category that the test doesn't encompass.  It's not a flaw on Sanctaphrax's case then, it's a flawin the test for not having a broad enough set of parameters.  He seems to enjoy games more on a meta level, so trying to pigeonhole him with a particular playstyle archetype just isn't going to work.

Also, I'm kind of on the same page as Sanctaphrax on that example question.  I would want to know why I died on a meta level, in other words as a player, but it wouldn't really be necessary to plot revenge, or to keep it from happening again, I'll just reroll.  My next character is not going to care because he's probably not going to have any relation to my former character at all.  If he did then depending on the character either option would be valid for me depending on the kind of character I wanted to play.

Offline tetrasodium

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Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #61 on: November 10, 2012, 06:53:57 PM »
@Tetrasodium:  Do you need / want all of the detailed options in your elemental descriptions?  I find it easier to simply state "The Element of Fire can do anything you can reasonably describe as being caused by fire."  The only element which may need more description than that is Spirit.  And that's probably more about defining just what Spirit is...
Probably not really, no, most of it was just for example purposes that might have gone too far :)

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #62 on: November 10, 2012, 10:19:13 PM »
Well too bad, you've said "I don't understand" several times through this thread and failed to explain what it is you don't understand.  It is not communicating when you just repeatedly say you "don't understand" or "aren't getting it" without explaining what you don't understand.

True enough. Sorry 'bout that.

The issue was that I didn't understand enough to know exactly where my confusion was from. I was just generally befuddled.

Fortunately, I think most of my confusion has been resolved now. Later replies have been illuminating.

Just one question: were you trying to tell me that I shouldn't be questioning the validity of this scale?

  • The Questions are all multiple choice, often binary:  It gives a grouping of percentages that summarize where you as a player of RPG's fall on a 4 axis scale.  You may not add a fifth axis, subtract an axis, apply it to a game like craps/checkers/chess/etc/writing a novel...  because then you are not "playing an RPG"!  I'm not sure where your confusion lies because you've again failed to state what you don't understand & instead chose to post a number of facts with nothing about what you fail to understand.

Not so. The test is clearly designed for MMORPGs, and I think it'd fail for a great number of tabletop RPG players. The questions say very little about collaborative storytelling, and they often talk about showing off your general awesomeness to the other players in the game. Which doesn't work so well in a tabletop game where there are only three or so other players and the game isn't very competitive.

You'd say that sucks & keep playing:  You wouldn't even attempt to find out why they were able to, or decided  kill you.  Kinda hard to keep playing if you don't know why you were just killed.  If you were just killed because "rocks fall/lightning strikes, you die" you might want to consider why the GM decided on that particular course of action or where your character went/what they did to cause the other player to kill you.  I think you are definitely in the minority in that you would make no attempt to find out why you were killed by another player in an RPG.  It's rather rare to have one player in an RPG kill your player character without having done something exceedingly annoying/stupid, the same holds true with most tabletop RPG's *calling warhammer an RPG is  a pretty huge stretch)[/li][/list]

Well, in MMORPGs (I hear) people kill each other all the time. I was trying to answer from that perspective.

On the tabletop, it really depends. If the killing was the result of an in-character conflict with no bad blood between players, my answer stands. Otherwise it's time for an out-of-game conversation and maybe somebody leaving the group.

True...but then it was never really a Theory.  Not in any scientific sense at least.  At best it's a classification system but it fails there because it redefines terms in a verbosely obtuse manner and attempted to make each category exclusive. 

...

Sigh, people can certainly be insulting and many of the GNS flame wars certainly were.  But there's nothing inherently insulting about studying and classifying an activity.  And we humans study ourselves so much there are a few dozen such fields of specialty.  ;)

People tried to present it as a theory, and for much of its existence it was mainly a club used to beat people in flame wars.

That's because classification makes a good insult. GNS was used for insults because that's generally the point when you label people.

I'll check out the link though.

Sanctaphrax does fall outside of the "normal" range of what is interesting to players about games.

I don't think I'm that unusual...I think many many people would fall outside of that test's categories.

At least for RPGs. MMO people might be different, I know little about MMOs.[/list]

Offline Mrmdubois

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Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2012, 11:34:32 PM »
Fair enough.  Even if you were though my point that its not a bad thing stands. ::)

Offline tetrasodium

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Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2012, 05:50:54 AM »
    mmorpg mmorpg mmorpg mmo mmo mmorpg[/list]

    ahem...  in reverse chronological order...
    It's not playstyle model trying to sum up a game like GNS, , it's psychology model generalizing what a player enjoys about a plsaying an rpg.  You are just refusing to acknowledge that an rpg pretty much boils down to certain general types of things you could do & trying to redefine certain words.  But since you are still trying to claim that you break the mold & there is some fifth thing you cannot put to words that applkies to you & don't understand the concept the (very old) bartle scale represents, just take the damned test, here's one phrased for mmo with a handy self scoring thing
    http://www.gamerdna.com/rails/quizzes/take/bartle-test-of-gamer-psychology
    and...
    Agreed [With regards to the FATE is about story phrase being problematic], but I'd like to extend on this with my own thoughts.  I suspect we might be in agreement on them, & they might be helpful with regards to some of the confusion on the "fate is not about story" & my belief that "story" is a poor choice of words.

    I'm sure that at least a significant percentage of the folks here have at least heard of the [=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Testurl]Bartle test[/url] where players [not game designers, not novelists]are divided into some mix of explorer, Socializer, Achiever, & Killer.  It may have been originally designed toward splayers of MUD's & MMO's, but both of those are descendents of pen & paper RPG's making it still apply to different player playstyles. By using the word choice of "story", you somewhat imply that FATE should be slanted heavily towards some of those with some of the other playstyles being an odd fit when that is not the case.

    To use a real world example, few would claim that a live radio broadcast of a sporting event is a "story", in the technical sense it both is & is not.  With fate, you can have:
    • A: A player rather far into the socializer slant that wants to roleplay & doesn't think anyone should bother with dice, maneuvers, aspects, etc because it "gets in the way of story." He gets annoyed when people inject nonsense like combat into his "story" & retreats into a portable hole when it starts if at all possible
    • B: A player who wants to explore the world & doesn't give a fig about "story."  Things like aspects/maneuvers/etc just get in the way of doing that.  He too doesn't care about one of the other aspects & retreats into his portable hole/pokeball when that thing comes up in game
    • C: A player who doesn't give a fig about  A or B & just wants to kill shit & break things.  Since this player is uninterested in the exploring/socializing aspects & has been told "FATE is about story", they play a character that effectively lives in a portable hole until there is combat rather than "ruining" the game for the other's
    • D: A player who wants to achieve something with their character who wants to collect things (or whatever).  He's been told that "FATE is about story" and  sees that enchanted items cost refresh, since C is playing a blind deaf mute outside of combat and A/B are off doing their own things that kind of exclude him as well, he too leans towards mute/uncertain about involvement without ever realizing that some of those cool toys & things he wants to achieve can be obtained through involvement & assessing/declaring a hanging light into the ballroom so he can swing from it shooting "monsters" along the waylooking badass in the spotlight.  Because he's been beat over the head previously in other systems for being a "spotlight hog", he never gets comfortable enough to go about really inserting himself into A, B, & C's areas in ways that direct the spotlight towards him & really shake things up due to the fact that such things would "break" thew game using many other more rigid systems.  He also kinda lives in a portable hole not wanting to "hog the spotlight" & break the game, but he occasionally springs out into action pokemon style..

    In reality, almost nobody is 100% slanted towards any one thing, but people usually lean towards 1-2 things more than the others.  The problem with all the portable hole/pokeball dwelling characters is that the sudden appearance of a few characters that were all but ignored & trying to be deaf mutes really causes problems. It causes even more problems if they have spotty/random attendance because they figure their interest won't come up much this week & nothing is lost for them since it's "probably just going to be a minor milestone I don't need" instead of an experience accumulation.
    I might not know a thing about, or be interested in boxing... but this randomly selected muhammed Ali fight i just listened to is a pretty damned cool "story" that FATE could handle easily even though almost nobody would call it a "story" (being at work, I can't exactly go hunting for one with a more active announcer)

    Haru's comment about getting players to say what their character is doing is relevant to this whole thread.  The original reframing I did in the first three posts was designed to help players accomplish just that by explaining something alien to them in terms that are more familiar to them & make it easier for them to think about how to do more than push numbers around the table.

    The one in 5 or so (if that) players I have sit down that are familiar with the dresdenverse are usually so paralyzed by the thought of conflicting with the cannon in the books that they are afraid to step out of their portable hole very often, "when do we meet Harry/Marcone/etc, or can I play Harry?" is usally more of a problem for them.  Woe to the GM who gets one of them as an A or B type player as the only other player with a C or D type player's first session.  By describing things in a more typical fantasy style, both sides of that coin are (hopefully )less afraid of taking the reins & doing more narrating than "pushing numbers around", the game can be more healthy.

    In short, you redefined & ignored the context of so many words for so long that you skipped right past the planet the point was on.

    Offline tetrasodium

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    Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
    « Reply #65 on: November 11, 2012, 06:02:48 AM »
    Sanctaphrax does fall outside of the "normal" range of what is interesting to players about games.  As such he does fall into a fifth category that the test doesn't encompass.  It's not a flaw on Sanctaphrax's case then, it's a flawin the test for not having a broad enough set of parameters.  He seems to enjoy games more on a meta level, so trying to pigeonhole him with a particular playstyle archetype just isn't going to work.

    Also, I'm kind of on the same page as Sanctaphrax on that example question.  I would want to know why I died on a meta level, in other words as a player, but it wouldn't really be necessary to plot revenge, or to keep it from happening again, I'll just reroll.  My next character is not going to care because he's probably not going to have any relation to my former character at all.  If he did then depending on the character either option would be valid for me depending on the kind of character I wanted to play.

    I disagree I will say this again, hopefully for the last time this time.  The scoring  is about what sorts of activities you like your character to do.  What pray tell do you believe you can do with your character in the game that involves "some meta level" that does not either involve socializing, killing, exploring, or achieving things?  Be specific, because there has been a lot of "I enjoy them for other reasons" while giving no detail about what it is that is enjoyed doing instead.  The closest to come was tweaking the rules (unquestionably an achievement or form of exploration)or writing a story... but, since any story pretty much needs to involve one or more of those four things, be specific as to what kind of story fits into none of those groupings at all?  writing  a story & mucking with the rules on a meta level ate not activities done in the game unless you redefine rpg, or what constitutes a character activity*.

    * honestly at this point, it seems like the "confusion" over what constitutes an activity you do with your character in the game is bordering on willful blindness
    « Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 06:11:44 AM by tetrasodium »

    Offline tetrasodium

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    Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
    « Reply #66 on: November 11, 2012, 06:07:05 AM »
    @Tetrasodium:  Do you need / want all of the detailed options in your elemental descriptions?  I find it easier to simply state "The Element of Fire can do anything you can reasonably describe as being caused by fire."  The only element which may need more description than that is Spirit.  And that's probably more about defining just what Spirit is...
    No, don't really need them.  Spirit is the odd man out & that was part of why I plugged it as "divine" a day or so after I wrote up descriptions for the four elements minus the scrying & such.

    Offline Mrmdubois

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    Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
    « Reply #67 on: November 11, 2012, 06:10:55 AM »
    That particular kind of achievement, story and rule tweaking are meta in themselves since the characters are not aware of the rules and mechanics and can't be aware of too much of the the over-arching plot in order to keep belief suspended.  As such those two activities don't fall into a character play style archetype that the quiz is trying to define players as having.

    Offline tetrasodium

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    Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
    « Reply #68 on: November 11, 2012, 06:17:16 AM »
    That particular kind of achievement, story and rule tweaking are meta in themselves since the characters are not aware of the rules and mechanics and can't be aware of too much of the the over-arching plot in order to keep belief suspended.  As such those two activities don't fall into a character play style archetype that the quiz is trying to define players as having.

    Correct!   That is not a point that should have been this hard to make that it required pages of debate

    Offline Mrmdubois

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    Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
    « Reply #69 on: November 11, 2012, 06:51:33 AM »
    My bad, I thought you wanted Sanctaphrax to take the quiz to find out what kind of player he is when he's said that for him at least the play is not necessarily the main point of the game.  As such he falls outside of the range of the test's categories, so there isn't really much point in him taking it.  His main point so far, and the one that seemed to lead to you wanting him to take the test is that he dislikes attempts to pigeonhole people with questionnaires and fixed play styles because it can lead to stereotyping and elitism which can damage enjoyment of any game.

    The stereotype that seems to be going on here is that you think your players can't grasp the concept or rules of the DFRPG unless you change the format of the game by rendering it more like d&d.  Trying to create a long list of possible elemental spell effects, changing the fundamental nature of Spirit (narratively) by making it divine, and rewriting the laws of magic in order to make them less intimidating for your players to explore.  Sanctaphrax has said this is unnecessary and coming from a d&d background myself I agree.

    You wanted honest feedback on whether or not what you were doing was good.  I don't think it's bad.  I just don't think its necessary.  It's not really Dresden Files anymore, which is fine if you intend to use the rules and not the setting.  If you do intend to use the setting though I wouldn't change anything.

    In particular I wouldn't change the nature of the element of Spirit to being from a Divine source, Sponsored Magics already have you covered there.  Also, I wouldn't change the Laws.  They are supposed to be intimidating and most practitioners prefer to stay on the very right side of them.  If your players also want to stay on the far right side of them in order to avoid breaking them that's fine.  If you want to show them that there are grey areas and not all of them are bad then using in game examples of grey areas should be enough to pique their interest.  If not, then maybe you should let it drop for now.

    I've also noticed, from what I can gather from your anecdotes, that if there is a problem with your players it's less an understanding of the rules and more a lack of investment in the game.  Trying to figure out why that is should probably be your first priority.  If part of the problem is spotty attendance and an influx of newbies then you may have to recap rules frequently be patient about it and try to help a few of the players who are interested and attend most regularly to get a firm grasp on the rules.  In time those players can hopefully provide a strong core so the game doesn't choke and they may be able to also help lighten the burden of enlightening newbies. 

    I want to be clear I'm not saying this because I don't think you know already, but because it's what I've thought might help, it's my honest feedback.  This thread seems to have devolved significantly from its original intent, it might help to try and refocus back to the beginning.

    Offline tetrasodium

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    Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
    « Reply #70 on: November 11, 2012, 07:27:22 AM »
    My bad, I thought you wanted Sanctaphrax to take the quiz to find out what kind of player he is when he's said that for him at least the play is not necessarily the main point of the game.  As such he falls outside of the range of the test's categories, so there isn't really much point in him taking it.  His main point so far, and the one that seemed to lead to you wanting him to take the test is that he dislikes attempts to pigeonhole people with questionnaires and fixed play styles because it can lead to stereotyping and elitism which can damage enjoyment of any game.
    don't really care, he was just claiming confusion with no explasion on what confused him. Suggesting he take the test was simply because it's hard to be confused by a multiple choice questionnaire that gives you a range of percentages for the different playstyle categories based on your answetrs to various activity examples that could take place using ones character & desires/reactions to events :)

    Quote
    The stereotype that seems to be going on here is that you think your players can't grasp the concept or rules of the DFRPG unless you change the format of the game by rendering it more like d&d.  Trying to create a long list of possible elemental spell effects, changing the fundamental nature of Spirit (narratively) by making it divine, and rewriting the laws of magic in order to make them less intimidating for your players to explore.  Sanctaphrax has said this is unnecessary and coming from a d&d background myself I agree.
    Yea, that's not to say that I intend/want to make it into d&d, just crib from some of it's settings as a numvber of players showed & admitted having trouble trying to carry over concepts that seemed clear in standard fantasy rpg's into the dresdenverse's real world with other stuff beneath the surface.  I was (I think) always able to ask a few questions to help them find a real world/dresdenverse analog to them, but they still admitted difficulty & uncertainty about bringing in things that might clash with the dresdenverse.  Since people familiar with the dresdenverse were an extreme minority, it's easier to just say the game it s in one of those distant levels of the nevernever like the one harry & bob talked about a blue spiderman existing in _(one of the side jobs stories perhaps?)_ given that pretty much anything from dresdenverse will fit in fine with a more standard fantasy setting like a modern eberron(http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/Eberron?from=Main.Eberron) with its religious pantheon that is both highly simplified over standard d&d's and inclusive of all those nobody gods that always needed looking up.

    Quote
    You wanted honest feedback on whether or not what you were doing was good.  I don't think it's bad.  I just don't think its necessary.  It's not really Dresden Files anymore, which is fine if you intend to use the rules and not the setting.  If you do intend to use the setting though I wouldn't change anything.
    I like the rules & love the books, but the setting is not all that important :)  You are right that the refluff in the first couple posts is probably unnecessary.

    Quote
    I've also noticed, from what I can gather from your anecdotes, that if there is a problem with your players it's less an understanding of the rules and more a lack of investment in the game.  Trying to figure out why that is should probably be your first priority.  If part of the problem is spotty attendance and an influx of newbies then you may have to recap rules frequently be patient about it and try to help a few of the players who are interested and attend most regularly to get a firm grasp on the rules.  In time those players can hopefully provide a strong core so the game doesn't choke and they may be able to also help lighten the burden of enlightening newbies. 

    Yea I ran the game for several months (close to a year) with  a core group of 4 regulars often showing up in 2-3's with the two most uninvolved/uninvested players having the best attendance to a nearly flawless record.   (the others were due to work/school/ride troubles).  The work one got an awesome  joblike 4 hours away & the school one graduated when the rest of the group disintegrated & I decided to some time off when the last one quit showing up & regularly one week no newbies showed either

    Quote
    I want to be clear I'm not saying this because I don't think you know already, but because it's what I've thought might help, it's my honest feedback.  This thread seems to have devolved significantly from its original intent, it might help to try and refocus back to the beginning.
    No, believe me I've considered a lot of this & tried to squeeze blood from that stone with some of the players always getting how much they really enjoy it & love the game *this particular example from the "mike" player described a while back.  Sometimes just hearing what you already know/suspect is useful when that knowledge/suspicion doesn't make much sense , but hearing it is good :)

    Offline Sanctaphrax

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    Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
    « Reply #71 on: November 11, 2012, 09:05:56 PM »
    I disagree I will say this again, hopefully for the last time this time.  The scoring  is about what sorts of activities you like your character to do.  What pray tell do you believe you can do with your character in the game that involves "some meta level" that does not either involve socializing, killing, exploring, or achieving things?  Be specific, because there has been a lot of "I enjoy them for other reasons" while giving no detail about what it is that is enjoyed doing instead.  The closest to come was tweaking the rules (unquestionably an achievement or form of exploration)or writing a story... but, since any story pretty much needs to involve one or more of those four things, be specific as to what kind of story fits into none of those groupings at all?  writing  a story & mucking with the rules on a meta level ate not activities done in the game unless you redefine rpg, or what constitutes a character activity*.

    * honestly at this point, it seems like the "confusion" over what constitutes an activity you do with your character in the game is bordering on willful blindness

    Kindly don't accuse me of arguing in bad faith. I've put a fair bit of work into hacking through the confusing writing in your posts, I'd rather not be told that my befuddlement is imaginary.

    It's been possible I've been barking up the wrong tree this whole time, but if so it certainly was not intentional.

    What I've been trying to say is that what I do with my character really isn't that important to me. My interest in RPGs has rather little to do with actually playing them.

    (I don't think that this is weird: the internet is littered with people who care more about theory than play.)

    And when I say that the test does not apply well to tabletop games, it's not because I don't understand you. It's because I don't agree with you.

    The test you gave to me was fairly worthless because it forced me to lie and used my lies to classify me. Its classifications are therefore extremely suspect.

    As for your contention that anything you can do with your character in-game can be categorized in one of the 4 classes you gave, I put to you that every human action is an attempt to achieve something. So the categories by their names are uselessly broad.

    But when you look at what the categories are actually meant to be about, according to Wikipedia, they become a lot more narrow. Seems that Achievers are mostly about showing off, that clubs are mostly about competition, and that Socializers are about socializing with other players, not other characters. (Explorers really are about exploring though.)

    When you look at the real meanings of the categories, plenty of what you can do in a tabletop game falls outside of their bounds. First and foremost, there's pretending to be your character.

    Offline tetrasodium

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    Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
    « Reply #72 on: November 11, 2012, 10:02:54 PM »
    When you look at the real meanings of the categories, plenty of what you can do in a tabletop game falls outside of their bounds. First and foremost, there's pretending to be your character.
    not this nonsense again it seems that what I kindly called as just possibly being "willful blindness" earlier was too mild.  It is also blindingly obvious that you are not reading the thread.  A failure to read the thread & what is being said in even recent posts seems to be the source of all your confusion.

    I disagree I will say this again, hopefully for the last time this time.  The scoring  is about what sorts of activities you like your character to do.  What pray tell do you believe you can do with your character in the game that involves "some meta level" that does not either involve socializing, killing, exploring, or achieving things?  Be specific, because there has been a lot of "I enjoy them for other reasons" while giving no detail about what it is that is enjoyed doing instead.  The closest to come was tweaking the rules (unquestionably an achievement or form of exploration)or writing a story... but, since any story pretty much needs to involve one or more of those four things, be specific as to what kind of story fits into none of those groupings at all?  writing  a story & mucking with the rules on a meta level ate not activities done in the game unless you redefine rpg, or what constitutes a character activity*.

    * honestly at this point, it seems like the "confusion" over what constitutes an activity you do with your character in the game is bordering on willful blindness

    That particular kind of achievement, story and rule tweaking are meta in themselves since the characters are not aware of the rules and mechanics and can't be aware of too much of the the over-arching plot in order to keep belief suspended.  As such those two activities don't fall into a character play style archetype that the quiz is trying to define players as having.

    Correct!   That is not a point that should have been this hard to make that it required pages of debate

    Since you again failed to be specific in what you can do with  your character in the game that involves "some meta level" that does not either involve socializing, killing, exploring, or achieving things.  You have shown no interest in clearing up your confusion again.  So I'm not sure if you expect a serious answer, or are judt going for a higher postcount.
    oops I had a quoyte from mrdubois in there 2x.  That's beem fixed
    « Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 10:10:03 PM by tetrasodium »

    Offline Mrmdubois

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    Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
    « Reply #73 on: November 11, 2012, 10:06:18 PM »
    I think you're misusing my quotes when you try to use them to support your position tetrasodium.

    Offline tetrasodium

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    Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
    « Reply #74 on: November 11, 2012, 10:32:24 PM »
    I think you're misusing my quotes when you try to use them to support your position tetrasodium.
    Yea I double quoted you by mistake & went back to fix that :).  I only quoted you because you agreed that sort of gameplay he enjoys is too far abstracted into  a distant meta level to be considered something at the player enjoys doing these kinds of things with their character in the game layer.  Frankly I don't care what Sanctaphrax has to say on the subject of the Bartle scale while trying to boost his postcount.  The bartle scale  only came up when he stated
    Quote
    PS: I don't really like the whole "FATE is about story" thing.
      I tried to offer it as a suggestion explaining part of what he might have been trying to get at after  you yourself tried to ask him what it was about then (to which he refused as well. 

    Frankly, Despite hiss repeated claims of "confusion", Sanctaphrax has shown an extreme disinterest in clearing up any confusion by answering direct questions, following the thread, or anything else that could help with the misunderstanding  I've point blank asked repeatedly what specifically he enjoys doing in the game with his character(s) with no response aside from perhaps "writing a story"  or "tinkering with the rules to make a better game."   Of course neither of those things involve the character due to an apparent deliberate misinterpretation.

    I no longer care if Sanctaphrax agrees, understands, is confused, or is suffering from befuddlement as this whole ridiculous nonsense postcount++ path of confusion he is showing has been a waste of time that simply drives the thread further and further from its original intend with no end in sight.