Author Topic: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format  (Read 15909 times)

Offline tetrasodium

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« on: November 04, 2012, 06:12:54 PM »
I like the element system, admittedly, some of the thaumaturgy options feel a bit out of place as anything other than specializations.  Some of my players have had trouble grasping the conceptual nature of the elements goes beyond refluffed magic missile/scorching ray/fireball/etc & I decided to put together something explaining the elements in a way that fits standard fantasy rpg tropes a little better (i.e. d&d).  In the process, Spirit gets refluffed into divine casting with most of the laws of magic being more strict towards it to simulate the fact that divine casters need to behave themselves more than arcane ones to appease their god.  I figured others might like it, find it useful, or be interested in shooting holes/support at it :). on those last two, please do as it's intended for newbies who need help acclimating to non-vancian casting. =)


Keeping with the traditional fantasy trope of arcane magic being different from divine magic with both overlapping & different capabilities, there will be some immediately obvious changes like “force” from both Spirit, fire, and possibly others at times.  The arcane elements of fire, earth, water, and air definitely expand quite a bit once expanded into their conceptual nature beyond the pure element itself to the point where there is quite a bit of overlap & is now no longer a reason to have out of place thaumaturgy trappings like necromancy & summoning as something other than specializations .  Each of the arcane elements has the ability to draw on aspects of necromancy & mind magic through various means with various degrees of law violation risks.  Spirit by comparison has access to all of them (with guaranteed violations) in addition to  a proper method of resurrection. Because of the consequence nono involved with mind magic (see the third law below) it’s always a dangerous road to tread more than simply stepping up to the very edge with “ally of X” temp aspect type charm & weak minor “detect thoughts” type spells  I feel that Spirit’s tight fusing with the laws of magic and the extra leeway it gets in other areas like healing, raise dead, the creation of fire/water, etc things fit well with the typical schism between arcane & divine casters where they heavily overlap, but divine casters can do a few extra things denied to arcane casters with the string of needing to appease their god. 

Just about (if not every) element has some way of doing some healing of certain types of consequences (or at least starting that process), but Spirit has the typical divine caster-like ability to directly heal mental/physical injuries.  The “healing” does as good job of further differentiating Spirit/divineoff in its own little niche while avoiding “aww crap, I didn’t wanna have to play the cleric/healer” even though there are plenty of other ways to start the healing process in FATE making it a silly thing already.  Players who want to play a healer still have something special over arcane casters able to start healing sometimes.
With regards to scrying , I’ve made a few minor assumptions regarding the planar cosmology of the fantasy setting in general since it would be I,possible to do otherwise given all the possibilities.  Those assumptions are that each arcane element has a plane of existence of its own & spirit is able to reach any plane inhabited by beings with spirits of their own (even if that spirit is their form like many outsiders frequently in fantasy settings.) Nasty things can be out there if you dig too deeply with extraplanar sources, but minor scrying through them is relatively safe. This again gives everyone a little something to everyone that fits with their element.  Elementals embody both the element and the conceptual aspects of an element to varying degrees & are mostly rather “neutral” in nature.  In exchange for spirit’s ability to reach any plane, it has the side effect of making the caster directly reachable by more things while digging.  The combination of narrow & broad contact with the planes gives arcane casters an edge in their specific types of scrying & makes divine casters hesitant to abuse their options.

Laws of Magic: While the Laws of magic are great for balancing magic to an extent, the permanence that goes with them outright destroys many traditional spells like polymorph & the like.  I’ve chosen to reshuffle the laws of magic into traditional fantasy style in a way that includes both the “undead are abominations” as well as the “Divine casters can fall out of favor with their god & must take care with their spell casting.” themes.  This is done by saying most arcane spells are temporary unless the element & method used would be permanent due to properties of the element.  For example,using earth’s control over stability & grounding to break down & reshape a mind with earth’s stability keeping it that way permanently is bad; but using water’s control over change to accomplish the same thing is fine because water is loath to take on a stable form & will revert to normal soon after the caster quits applying shifts to persistence.
•   First Law: Never take a life… Let’s face it, killing people & things is pretty common in fantasy settings.  This is very important for Divine casters of “spirit” spells because they risk tainting their soul & angering their god.  For the other arcane elements?... not so much unless it’s being done in an “Evil” way or just for cruelty/fun.  I think keeping this vague & semi-ambiguous results in both divine casters being nervous about keeping their god happy with their actions  & wanting to act as a moral compass to the group rather than risk it.  That ambiguity also neatly divides arcane & divine casting while allowing for grey areas that divide “magic is a tool” & “that mage has gone dark!”
•   Second Law: This is usually the purview of arcane casters.  Water governs change & is anything but stable.  Use water to change another & it goes away on its own, no harm done.  Use earth to break down the stable form & mold a new one…, or fire to burn the current one away & encourage new growth in a different form like some kind of supernatural cancerous  uber stem cell treatment though… bad arcane caster!  Now Spirit deals with the soul itself & quite easily stomps all over this law.  The desire to keep spirit/divine casters concerned about being “good” makes this even more important for them ;).
•   Third Law: Never invade the thoughts of another.  Spirit is pretty boned here as well, but Arcane casting is usually going to be safe as long as they do not need to inflict mental consequences on an unwilling victims part of the activity.  Reading thoughts actively skimming across someone’s mind is fine, as would something like using earth to permanently destabilize traumatic memories & form them into something stable in a patient wanting  help from the caster is just peachy.  Using Air to give you the freedom needed to carefully climb inside the thoughts of a sick  refugee in order to figure out what they are fleeing from & offer help (likewise with spirit on those last two).  The ambiguity & ability for the gm to just say “he tries to fight you & takes a minor consequence” even if it was just a 1 shift spell makes mind magic something that arcane casters will be wary of using with gamebreaking consequences lest they go capital E “Evil” & be forced to take lawbreaker stunts.
•   Fourth Law: Never Enthrall Another.  This is another one where Divine casters get bones when using Spirit & arcane casters get a mere warning. Arcane spells like the traditional staple “Charm Person” that makes someone think you are an ally are fine if it’s just doing things like adding a temporary aspect kept active with shifts of persistence along the lines of “allies with X” & leaves them to muddle through the confusion of why their allies are suddenly fighting each other to the death. Arcane spells like “Dominate” where you force an opponent to obey your will however are a nono if they require a consequence, which it probably will… using dominate on the waitress to place your order when she would doso anyways seems kindda silly, I’m sure there would be a circumstance where it’s ok with the GM though.
•   Fifth Law: Never reach beyond the borders of life.  Finally we reach a law where arcane folks get bones outright & divine spirit casters get a pass!  Raise/resurrect dead type spells are pretty normal for divine casters  in fantasy settings, the arcane equivalent typically involves things like creating undead & arcane raise dead type spells are bad because the undead abominations draw life from others or come back pet cemetery type wrong depending on your GM.  Animate dead type spells where you use a temporarily animated zombie or somethingis probably fine provided the spell is structured in a way that it only lasts about as long as shifts are pumped into persistence.
•   Sixth Law: Never swim against the currents of time.  This one is a nobrainer as it has horrible universe breaking consequences.  Spells like haste where you perceive/experience time faster are fine.  Much more however is almost certain to result in an angry GM & a player with a lawbreaker stunt ;)
•   Seventh Law: Never seek knowledge from beyond the Outer Gates.  Summoning up/questioning things from the plane of insanity/chaos is probably a bad idea for anyone. Casters  should be extra careful with this kinda thing, the planar cosmology in your game is important to this one being relevant or not.

Offline tetrasodium

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2012, 06:13:35 PM »
Elements
The elements are pretty simple, however on top of being just an element, they are also concepts those elements embody.  This list Writeup is not intended to be exhaustive, just a general thing.  The original DFRPG elements are outlined on YS253. Much like the lightning example on YS254, elements have a great deal of overlap.  If an element can bolster something, it can weaken or redirect it as well most likely.  In some cases, this can be bad for the caster as one element may have other aspects that lead to such a use being either temporary (& easily usable as a result) or permanent (& possibly a laws violation).

•   Water: I’m starting with water as it easily sets the stage for a number of things in the other elements.  The core description for water is that it embodies Entropy , along with Change, and is responsible for things like erosion, decay, disrupting, dissolving, disintegrating, etc.
o   Polymorph effects: water embodies change among other things.  As a result of this aspect it has, you can use it to change the form of someone (or something).  Since water is fluidic & lacks a stable form of its own, This change will typically only last as long as you continue to pump shifts into persistence when the target of your spell begins to swiftly return to its normal form.
o   Decay/dissolve/etc [iffy]: There are lots of things you can do with this, few of them good.  Disintegration type spells are an obvious attack spell, but dispersing/decaying/eroding  the mind, thoughts, or structure of an opponent/victim is probably bad & likely to risk law violations as situations dictate
o   Force Effects: A jet of high pressure: water can topple structures or slice into the flesh of a victim in its way, if you compress water under the pressure of about 10,000 times that of ouratmosphere, it will even solidify at room temp. by using various methods, you could make force effects with water, but doing so for armor/shield effects would probably be a whole lot more complicated than relying on a screen of magic enhanced with its ability to erode, decay, & degrade things  It could also be used to degrade/decay/disperse kinetic force
o   Charm Spells[Iffy]: Spirit may be the magic of the mind, but water is the magic if change & can be used to do things like change the mind of an opponent into believing you are an ally. See the laws above for more details, but this relies on water’s lack of stable structure in order to protect the caster from law violations by quickly allowing the victim to revert back to a normal mental state once your spell ends.  If they took consequences in their attempts to resist your spell however, you are looking at a law violation.
o   Mind Mucking [Evil][iffy]:  This is pretty similar to fire’s ability to do this.  Unlike the earlier mentioned ability to temporarily change the thoughts &memories of a subject/opponent.  By using some of water’s other aspects, an arcane caster could erode, degrade, & decay the thoughts & memories of a subject.  Doing this to active thoughts might just cause a moment of confusion, but doing this to memories is almost certainly going to be a bad thing
o   Raise/Animate Dead & other Necromancy[Evil]:  By using the element of water , an arcane caster could pour waters of life into the dead. 
   Since water is not consuming, it’s more likely to make an intelligent lich type of abomination than a dumb but useful zombie.  The end result is still an abomination that sucks life from the world around it to continue it’ existence if the spell is not structured in a way that allows it to disperse after you quit powering it with shifts of persistence.  Choosing to do it in a “good enough” manner in order to create a dumb zombie is always an option
o   
o   Waterbreathing:  By taking advantage of water’s ability to change things, you could do things like change an ally to be able to breathe through a pair of gills while you power the spell with persistence.
o   Abjuration type effects: If water can change things, it can change a friend to make them temporarily stronger, smarter, focused etc while you pump shifts into persistence to maintaining the temporary aspect you gave them.  Granted someone with a high might, scholarship, discipline, etc may need more shifts pumped into this due to the difficulty involved.  Suddenly giving a frog into Einstein levels of scholarship might be doable for a while, but more is not always better, too much of a good thing can be distracting or cause problems with coordination & planning.  Be careful with just extending these effects across entire zones of allies.
o   Curse effects:  You may be asking how water can curse someone, but if you can use it to change someone to be someone smarter, stronger, or more athletic, you can use it to change them to be dumber, weaker, less coordinated, etc & rely on the same lack of stability in water to protect you from law violations once your spell wears off.  You can get slapped down hard with lawbreaker penalties if you inflict consequences as a direct part of the spell (dumb as a post consequence is bad, mentally headache, blurred vision, & bleeding from the ears will clear up fine.)
o   Cats grace & freedom of movement:  By enhancing the fluidity in an ally, you can do things like bestow an aspect to grant them the fluidity to move without impedance, or to move more fluidly, yes change could cover some of this, but different methods become important in different situations.
o   Reduced/Zero Gravity:  Use Water’s ability to erode & disperse things to erode & disperse gravity someplace desirable.  It might not be as good as reverse gravity, but it might let you carry that house in a pinch
o   Healing:  You could use water to change a wound into something less wounded, but the effect would likely be temporary & difficult unless some other method is used to maintain the spell.  It would be great to change a slashed wrist/throat into an unslashed one long enough to buy time for a divine (or mundane) healer to address the problem as you slowly release the spell.
o   Shadow/Darkness:  By eroding, decaying and/or degrading light itself, the element of water is able to create areas of shadow & darkness
o   Scrying With Water: Water Elementals are often selfish & vain.   Their mood & temperament ranges from calm, friendly, & complacent to indifferent brutality.
   Water is capable of reflecting things back at a viewer & ripples with the presence of sound.  Since most living creatures (especially civilized ones) tend to need water to some extent, they are often able to peer through & listen to things going on around another body /container of water & is great for making assessments/declarations like “I know where/when the BBEG’s ritual is going down” or helping to find a trail to their a supplier/henchmen.

•   Air:  Air is the element of motion & freedom, it’s also vital in most spoken communication & life requires it
o   Freedom of movement: No it won’t let you move through anything & avoid being grappled like the D&D version.  These kinds of effects can give you a defense, armor, or shield against anything that would impede movement given the right situation.
   This could likewise be twisted into hold person type effects by removing the freedom of motion in an opponent Too much of a good thing can be bad however as blood needs to move within the body for your victim to live, paralyzed while suffering from a massive heart attack might be a rather horrific death that taints the caster who caused it.
o   Telepathy & detect thoughts[IFFY]: The transmission of & eavesdropping on thoughts is a staple of many fantasy settings. By using the fact that air is vital to spoken communication, you can provide the freedom to enter or listen in on another’s thoughts.
o   Bending & manipulation of light:  Light passes through the air, & light is covers movement. You might not easily be doing any cool illusions with it, but a telescope & giant “ant” melting magnifying glass probably aren’t too tough ;).
o   Force Effects:  While not quite the same as Spirit’s control over force, a sufficiently dense &compressed area of air or wind could provide you with a similar effect
   By Extension, there are a great many nasty things that can be done with a highly compressed blade of air, or a pocket of vacuum
o   Flight & feather fall:  There are a great many ways you could swing these as coming from air, everything from reducing your motion towards the ground to gusts of wind to lift,  condensed sheets of air to carry you, along with  all sorts of other possibilities & combinations.  Needless to say, sustained flight probably is not that easy…. It might be a lot easier than landing though, that goes double if someone else threw you into the air & let you fall on your own, unprepared;).
o   Veils & invisibility type effects: Being responsible for things like motion & having light transmit through air gives you a nice way to use air for bending light around you sort of like a magically created mesh of fiberoptics that bend the light around you.
o   Raise/Animate Dead & other Necromancy[Evil]:  By using the element of air, an arcane caster could breathe life into the dead. 
   Since air is not consuming, it’s more likely to make an intelligent lich type of abomination than a dumb but useful zombie.  The end result is still an abomination that sucks life from the world around it to continue it’ existence if the spell is not structured in a way that allows it to disperse after you quit powering it with shifts of persistence.  Choosing to do it in a “good enough” manner in order to create a dumb zombie is always an option
o   Transmutation effects: Granted you probably won’t be using Air to turn your friend into a giant like water & some other elements can, but you might be able to transmute the air in order to purify it for breathing, or foul it to make breathing more difficult.  You could also do things like separate out only the explosive oxygen & compress it into a bomb ready for a spark.
Healing:  Air might be a poor choice for most healing, but a broken arm/leg could be started towards full mobility by reducing the freedom & motion in the broken section of bone & enhancing it in the limb itself the motion I the limb
o   Slow/Haste: By lowering or raising the movement in an opponent/ally, you can provide them with an aspect that slows or hastens their ability to move & react to things
o   Lightning: Lightning can fit under either air, or Earth depending on how a given caster views magic.
   Revive/Animate Dead: By imparting a body (or piece of one) with an arcane spark of life, a caster could bring it back as an undead abomination.  Because lightning is both capable of consuming things in fire & providing its own power to things, this sort of revival/animation could go towards both the [iffy] stupid animated corps type of zombie or [evil] creation of a lich depending on the caster’s intent & desire when casting the spell.  See the animate/raise dead entries under fire& air for more details on those particular undead variants
o   Water Breathing:  There is oxygen in water, by using air magic, you could theoretically forcibly collect the air in it into a breathable form or provide a bubble of breathable air that refreshes itself from the oxygen in the water.
o   Shield & armor effects:  If air can be compressed into a blade or wind can be used to lift you into the air,
o   Sound: Sound travels as a vibration through the air, by using air magic, a caster could do things like dampen sounds for stealth & privacy.  It could even do things like create phantom sounds & “throw”/redirect  actual or phantom sounds
o   Scrying With Air: Air elementals tend to be whimsical & easily distracted at one end, all the way to cruel & savage depending on their mood and temperament.
   Air’s temperament, ease of losing interest, & the general obviousness of a gust of wind wailing its way through one’s livingspace tends to make air elementals something typically a poor choice for scrying, they are usually able to move fast though & sometimes able to be n multiple places at once to allow for a “whispering wind” type effect where a brief message, & sometimes conversation can be had across distances of a few miles with only minor delays while the elemental remains interested in helping
   On a not related note, air magic can bend light as explained in other parts of air’s writeup, by doing so, an aeromancer can  always have ready access to a telescope, pair of binoculars, or magnifying “glass”
•   Fire:  On the surface, Fire is an element that’s stuck with mere destructive uses, but it’s aspects are so much more  First we start with consumption & destruction, but life, courage, & rage can be life a fire as well
o   Force Effects:  This is a different sort of force than the compressed air that air & water would use, but an explosion creates quite a bit of force, a directed explosion sends it right where it needs to go ;). Good for armor & shields if incinerating attacks is not going to be helpful.
o   Breathable Air: Ok, It’s not as useful as water & Air’s contributions here, but fire can split the air out of a watersource, & with some difficulty carefully burn off the hydrogen without burning off the oxygen (or blowing yourself up!)  Having a bowl/canteen of water pumping out oxygen while trapped in a vault or something could be mighty useful though!
o   Burn/incinerate stuff:  This is the obvious usage for fire, but it could be used for any situation where you might want to burn or incinerate stuff.  Granted ASir & spirit can focus light into a laser-like beam of burning death, but fire can go whole hog & just explode with a nice ball of burning death.
o   Mind mucking: [evil][Iffy] Fire can make changes to the mind of a victim, but unlike water & air, those changes will rarely escape a law violation due to how they work. Water lets you do things like temporarily add/change things in the mind of someone & air gives you the freedom to listen & move within their thoughts & memories; But fire allows you to burn away the thoughts & memories of your victim in a way far more destructive & potentially damaging than water’s ability to erode & disperse those memories.  Even if the subject of this sort of magic wants you to do this, it might still be iffy depending on the situation & whims of the GM.  Caster beware. 
o   Raise/Animate Dead[Evil]: Fires of life, by infusing the fire of life into a the dead, you can revive/animate them.
o   Since fire is a destructive force that consumes, you are likely to wind up with a horrible abomination hellbent on sustaining itself with the life of anything around it in a way that borders on hatred for the living.
o   Healing: You may be wondering how fire could heal without even being iffy.  It’s actually pretty reasonable though.  A bleeding wound can be sealed & disinfected with fire to allow it time to heal cleanly without infection & prevent the patient from bleeding out.  On top of that, your body will use fire to fight off various sorts of infections & illnesses by causing a fever or localized warmth to help in fighting off infection.  By using fire, you could even supercharge the body’s attempts, just be careful not to kill the patient in the process.
o   Regrowth:  While revive/animate dead is a bad idea, by lending fire’s strength of life to the patient’s own, you can help it to regrow damaged or missing body parts while it’s still alive.  Since you are only providing a sustaining encouraging scaffold for the body to repair itself, this manages to neatly avoi8d diving into tainting necromancy by the slimmest of margins.
o   Scrying with fire: Fire elementals are likely to lash out if they feel slighted or abused
   You wouldn’t think that a fire elemental would be much help when scrying, but fire creates light & is used for seeing in the dark.  As a result of that, a fire elemental could peek out from the elemental plane of fire through a candle or torch. Because everyone likes to see, a setting not using electric style lighting everywhere allows fire to assess things like “I’ve got a good idea who’s in there” or “the sacrifice is still alive & safe in a cell”

Offline tetrasodium

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2012, 06:15:11 PM »
o   Earth:  This leads us to our last Arcane element.  In some ways, earth is also the most dangerous element to have since stability is one of its aspects & it’s spells are not  as likely to erode & disperse themselves leading to law violations for a careless (or evil) arcane caster. The key aspects to earth are: Stability, Gravity, & Grounding. While the stability aspect tends to make earth spells  lack the tendency of self dispersal, consumption, & decay that air, water, & fire spells have.  In the case of a shelter, this can be useful through the night, but in the case of mind magic & transmutation, this can be a horrible thing
o   Transmutation:  Earth Has a whole lot more transmutation stuff than you would expect, it’s control over stability, gravity, and grounding allows you to do things like tear down walls and stable forms and reshape the earth, or the mind/body itself into new forms of stability.
o   Shelter:  You could go simple & make a dome with (or without) a door out of shaped stone or hardened mud to give yourself a place to hide & shelter in.  Sometimes however, more extreme cases will call for things like hollowing out a cave in a Cliffside, or even sinking your dome beneath the ground.  If you choose to hide below ground, be sure to use some other spell to provide a fresh supply of air if you intend to be staying long
o   Polymorph[Evil]:  By removing the stability in the structure of your victim, you can encourage the body to take on a new stable form using Earth’s other aspects.  Unfortunately this sort of thing is every bit as evil & lawbreaking as the magic described in the third law’s warnings about transforming another.
o   Mind Mucking:[Evil]  This is every bit as evil as fire’s version of this example.  Except instead of incinerating & consuming memories, you are tearing away stability of the mind & trying to builds a new stable form
o   Permanency[IFFY][evil]:  Earth’s control over stability could allow an arcane caster to make a spell (or other effect) into something permanent.  This activity in itself is not evil or law breaking, but nothing comes free, something needs to have its stability torn down & shaped into a new stable form to power the permanent effect, this might be a character’s aspect, it might be some vampire type need instilled in an object.  Whatever the case, It’s probably not always a good thing & always subject to the whims of the GM. 
o   Healing:  Earth has domain over stability & can be used to restore an unstable injury like insanity, broken bones, bleeding wounds, etc to their normal stable state with some difficulty.  It’s not enough to instantly heal a patient, but it will is enough to help put them back into a state of better functionality while they continue healing towards a full recovery & get the consequence slot back
o   This sort of spell could even result in a retroactive penalty.  Using the vampire effect mentioned, an enchanted sword designed to symbiotically feed off the blood, or life force, of its user is probably not going to cause any real problems.  If the user turns out to be a bloodthirsty murderous monster who figures out he can (super)charge the sword by torturing & slaying innocents by the dozen, if the caster who made the effect permanent chooses not to take action & allows this to continue, the caster is well on his way to piling up multiple  flavors of law violations.
o   Lightning:  Lightning can come from either air or earth for perceptual & scientific reasons that could vary from caster to caster
   Revive/Animate Dead: By imparting a body (or piece of one) with an arcane spark of life, a caster could bring it back as an undead abomination.  Because lightning is both capable of consuming things in fire & providing its own power to things, this sort of revival/animation could go towards both the [iffy] stupid animated corps type of zombie or [evil] creation of a lich depending on the caster’s intent & desire when casting the spell.  See the animate/raise dead entries under fire& air for more details on those particular undead variants
o   Gravity & (Instability):  The earth element has control over gravity. & stability, a number of unpleasant effects can be created by this
   Gravity:  Singularity, crushing fist, reverse gravity.  Most of them are straight up mean & often poorly defended against
•   Singularity/White Hole: By creating a highly condensed ball of gravity, an arcane caster can create a miniature black hole capable of immense devastation given enough shifts of power.  The lesser known theoretical counterpart of a black hole is the white hole, a white hole is practically an explosion ejecting everything sucked into a black hole (possibly even one located elsewhere)
•   Reverse Gravity: If earth lets you play with gravity, it also lets you do things like reverse or redirect gravity.  “Up is now down & down is now up” can be rather difficult to defend against, as can be the ground when down becomes down again.
•   Redirect Gravity: Let’s say you have a few zones of baddies that you want to trap, or crush, by taking the gravity in an area larger than the one the baddies are in, you could immobilize or crush them under their own weight
•   Flight: Calling this flight is almost a stretch; it is however, probably one of the more stable ways to fly.  Use Earth to lessen or reverse gravity beneath you & follow up with magnetism to push/pull yourself through the sky towards your destination
•   Instability:   all of the other gravity effects, and more, can reject (or redirect) the stability aspect of earth magic in order to cause chaos.  Let’s say you have a zone (or more) of ground with gravity about to be multiplied, subtract stability to give you tentacles of black & white holes attracting, repelling, & feeding off each other around the unlucky opponents in that zone
o   Scrying With Earth: Earth elementals tend to be slow & difficult to convince into taking or changing action.  Their temperament is often so passive that they often border on near slumber.
   Earth is an incredibly useful element to scry with due to an earth elemental’s ability to “see” the general structure of a cave or stone building.  Its usefulness often fails by the wayside somewhat when trying to identify creatures within that structure as they tend to not be so savvy at understanding biological creatures that live “on” the earth’s surface, even if that sureface is a cave floor/roof.  It might not see much difference between a huge patch of ivy & a cavern filled with sleeping bats as a simple example.   It’s great for making assessments like “I know the general layout”


•   Spirit: If you’ve been reading along, you almost certainly noticed that much of what was normally found under spirit has variants under the other arcane elements as conceptual aspects of the elements are drawn out.  Spirit is not abandoned however; it gets stuff from the other elements as it dives into conceptual aspects ;)  A “divine” spirit caster needs to be especially aware of & wary of the laws of magic in order to avoid tainting their soul & invoking the wrath of whatever deity they gain power from (if any)
o   Raise/animate dead[EVIL]: All of the arcane methods of creating undead abominations (earth, water, & Air) are possible by tearing a/the spirit from the afterlife & forcibly imprisoning it in a corpse with the same results as if an arcane caster had used fire, air, water, or earth to accomplish the deed.
   Resurrect Dead: [Iffy]By dealing directly with the spirit realm, a divine/spirit caster can gently open a passage for the departed’s soul to return through & gently knit the thing back in place in the original body where it can be properly repaired to a state where it can power itself through normal biological processes like eating food & living life. Assuming the subject is willing, this is probably not an evil deed worthy of violating one of the laws of magic. You should talk to your GM about this sort of thing before simply trying it, there may be strings placed on the resurrected soul/body & the spell itself might require extremely difficult to aquire components.
o   Mind magic[Evil][Iffy]:  All the methods of mind magic described in fire &  earth are available to water by directly manipulating the mind/soul itself rather than metaphorically doing so with an element’s arcane aspects.  Since Spirit lacks water’s habit of rejecting stability within  it’s own form, Spirit cannot gently change the mind of an opponent/subject on a temporary basis..  Without Air’s familiar transmission allowing communication, spirit lacks Air’s potentially harmless method of listening in or its ability to freely move though the thoughts of another.
o   Force Effects:  Spirit is able to directly shape the soul into a tangible force & do every force effect described in the Arcane elements without a need for analogies.
o   Polymorph: [EVIL]  Spirit/Divine Polymorph is actually worse than earth’s.  Like Earth’s polymorph it’s not going to simply go away & revert to normal on its own. Unlike the other elements capable of polymorph-like effects, Spirit/divine polymorph changes both the soul & body directly while the caster is in direct contact with it without a shield of metaphors
o   Fire: Fire is able to interact with life because life & the soul is like a fire.  Spirit by extension is able to create fire & fiery explosions, it is not however able to make use of fire’s secondary aspects without great difficulty.  Spirit’s fires still burn, they just lack the ability to use consumption & destruction metaphorically (& probably has no need)
o   Water:  Spirit can use the same water of life analogy that allows water to do some of what it does.  As a result, it is capable of creating jets & blades of water even while it’s unable to access water’s metaphorical aspects  like decay/dispersal/etc using that metaphor.
o   Abjuration:  Spirit is able to directly touch the soul of another; as a result spells like heroism/Bolster courage & those that bestow other positive emotions on willing targets can be used without risk of a law violation. Intent matters Forcing one person to love someone they did not, or have so much courage that they run off to their (pointless) death for selfish purposes are two examples of positive emotions being bolstered in a way that would result in one or more law violations depending on the whims of your GM.
o   Healing:  There is no d&d style “poof you are perfect” style healing in fate given how consequences work.  Spirit is directly capable of healing nearly any physical or mental consequence into something else that allows the injured party to function more normally while recovery completes.  It is also able to use the life force of the injured themselves to support the magic while they heal in a symbiotic non-parasitic manner (of course parasitic is an option with law violation risks).  Doing so results in the same sort of risk of being slapped by someone else’s law violation that permanency under earth magic has.
   Depending on your game, your GM may choose to allow you to step down the level of a consequence while healing a subject, doing so will almost certainly be incredibly difficult however.
o   Curses:  Much Like all of the other elements, anything Spirit can give, it can redirect or work or take, you could easily use spirit to cause terror, cowardice, or drain life directly from an opponent:  Doing so will likely result in a law violation of some form, inducing a negative emotion on the min d of another is easily a violation of third/fourth law (if not both).  Stealing life from an opponent, could easily be considered to be reaching beyond the borders of life
o   Veils: There is a section of YS  that outlines rules related to veils.
o   Scrying with Spirit: There is no such thing as a spirit/force elemental, but spirit can contact all the other elementals as well as various extraplanar representatives.  Players should have an idea of what they are trying to contact ahead of time & speak with the GM or expect these other creatures to be rather unpleasant compared to the elementals.  This sort of contact with non-elemental beings comes with added risks due to the fact that things you are not trying to contact can use the link you bear towards extraplanar beings to crawl out at/through

Offline tetrasodium

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2012, 06:29:22 PM »
It's not intended to be an exhaustive tome of magic style listing, I think/hope you guys agree that it's a good intro that provides experienced d&d type players a warm & familiar pool to jump into & does a good job of both protecting the game from horrible uses of magic to make casters think before they break out book of vile darkness style spells without making arcane casters afraid to even consider many of the standard fantasy type spells like detect thoughts, charm & polymorph or making those spells extremely powerful and turning them into mindrape/baleful polymorph+permanence all the time.  "Divine" spirit casters get the "I can start healing for realz yo!" stuff along with some of the usual overlap into arcane casting while arcane gets some minor themantically  appropriate methods of starting to heal some types of consequences based on the element in use along with a strong dose of "arcane casters tampering with life create undead abominations" with the different  elements creating different sorts of abominations and that those abominations are sometimes reasonably kinda ok.  Both spirit/divine  & the arcane elements can claim that the other side of the fence just doesn't understand how things really work on some level where each can mimic certain raw elements of the other even while the metaphorical conceptual aspects are out of reach leading to accomplishing certain things differently even if the end result is nearly the same & just situationally more/less helpful.

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2012, 08:53:14 PM »
I am very confused. What is this?

Offline Haru

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5520
  • Mentally unstable like a fox.
    • View Profile
Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2012, 09:01:26 PM »
I am very confused.
You're not the only one.
“Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Offline Lavecki121

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1891
    • View Profile
Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2012, 09:48:07 PM »
I understand. I just cant see the point.

Offline tetrasodium

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2012, 12:41:02 AM »
I am very confused. What is this?

 :'(
I thought it was pretty well explained,  it's the elements described in yourstory re-described with a standard fantasy rpg  (d&d/Pathfinder/etc) style filter maybe I'm not understanding your question or something?  It came about out of frustration running an "open game"* at a FLGS where the majority of my players had trouble adjusting to both the dresdenverse (few of them had read the books).  That lack of understanding was made worse when they would get into the magic system & find themselves at a loss for anything familiar.  I wound up eventually sliding the game towards a fantasy/eberron-like setting & a lot of the regular players seemed to start having an easier time of it.  The redescribed elements are really pretty much the original elements described differently with more in the way of example/guidance aimed at a fantasy style setting.   Maybe that helps?... If not, can you guys give a bit more explaination on your confusion?

* Open game means that anyone who shows up can play

Offline Lavecki121

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1891
    • View Profile
Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2012, 01:43:28 AM »
The issue I'm having is that you wrote this huge long thing to make stuff "easier" and yet what you have done is change a system that the people who you are writing this for have not read and dont understand, in order to make it that way.

It seems like a waste when the FATE system is designed for imagination and if they dont understand the magic system, further defining what the types of spells can be done doesn't help people understand the magic system I feel. Also you have redefined spirit to be clerical type spells when there is another section that defines that itself.

I'm not trying to be mean but it seems like a waste.

Offline tetrasodium

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2012, 02:12:38 AM »
The issue I'm having is that you wrote this huge long thing to make stuff "easier" and yet what you have done is change a system that the people who you are writing this for have not read and dont understand, in order to make it that way.

It seems like a waste when the FATE system is designed for imagination and if they dont understand the magic system, further defining what the types of spells can be done doesn't help people understand the magic system I feel. Also you have redefined spirit to be clerical type spells when there is another section that defines that itself.

I'm not trying to be mean but it seems like a waste.

You aren't being mean, I posted my first draft here hoping for honest feedback :).  the examples are just that though, a large part of why I included them was because I was tired of "I call up X shifts of Y against that guy."  By having general examples I can give with a charactersheet, I'm saved from the inevitable "yea whatever that"* & a bunch of heads hitting the table in frustration.

The folks who don't understand it will usually fall into one of two groups:
  • They are new to rpg's in general & know nothing about the dresdenverse setting leading to lots of "yea that I guess" with a character that effectively might as well be "man 1"
  • a player who is familiar with some flavor of d&d/pathfinder/shadowrun & needs more help than I can give without turning the session into "and today, the GM teaches some guy, that may or not be back next session, how to play & about the setting"

Since it's easier to just stick things into a standard fantasy setting, I might as well explain magic in a way that better fits the setting & lacks all the dresdenverse "baggage" that doesn't really fit well in a d&d type of fantasy setting. 

I had originally considered dropping spirit altogether, but when I dove deeper into the elements, I noticed that a lot of what spirit has can be done through other elements & it felt out of place.  It was not until  a day or so after doing quick 1 page writeups on the individual elements that the spirit=divine caster with a code more strict than arcane to worry about.  After I made that decision, I went back & quickly threw together this rough draft :)

* Usually in reply to about 5-6 different off the cuff examples from myself and a regular or two trying to help.

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2012, 02:48:45 AM »
I usually just make  pre-gen characters and have the rotes written out.  I briefly explain how they work before-hand.

Then they can use their rotes or they can use those same spells and pump more power into them.

I'm also always sure to make one of the rotes is a maneuver-type spell, to give them an idea of how they work and how they can "invoke" it.  It's worked fairly well so far.  As they get used to the system, they can go away from their rotes and start inventing stuff.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 03:02:00 AM by Taran »

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2012, 05:15:44 AM »
I dunno about anybody else, but I'm having a lot of trouble working out which parts are explanation and which parts are house rules. It's probably the root of my confusion.

Also the Law stuff makes me nervous. Using the Laws as a balancing factor really isn't a good idea.

Offline tetrasodium

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2012, 05:55:43 AM »
I dunno about anybody else, but I'm having a lot of trouble working out which parts are explanation and which parts are house rules. It's probably the root of my confusion.

Also the Law stuff makes me nervous. Using the Laws as a balancing factor really isn't a good idea.

Thanks for the feedback :).  I originally set out to redescribe the elements as written with a d&d/fantasy style slant, all of the example stuff is just a very liberal reading of the elements put to words.  That's mostly the case with spirit if you just call it divine instead of spirit save for the fifth law pass it gets*.

Part of why I kinda came down hard on spirit is because on some levels I would rather people avoid it because most of the spirit casters I've had went out of their way to play a pokemon* style character that never gets involved in anything & completely shuts down if "I summon N shifts for a tracking spell"runs into a hiccup that requires more work than "and it takes you to the current bigbad" even if it takes them someplace like the bigbad's locked after hours corporate headquarters where he had been doing badwrongstuff.

 The laws being loosen/tightened I'm not entirely certain about, but the laws of magic are very dresdenverse specific & have led to an awful lot of confusion .  It's not really intended as a balancing factor, just I've seen too many casters played by people freaking terrified of possibly  maybe breaking a law & never really liked the fact that second through fourth law violating spells get a free pass on even pretending to require shifts towards persistence to maintain.  The laws aren't intended to serve as a balancing factor any more than they did originally, it's much easier & more useful during the game's progress to just rely on "actions have consequences" type sticks

* "Pikachu I choose you!... tracking spell, force bolt, oh something wasn't 1000% effective & you are going to sit there and sulk in silence now until a fight starts when you "I  summon N shifts of power for a force bolt".

Offline Haru

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5520
  • Mentally unstable like a fox.
    • View Profile
Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2012, 06:00:04 AM »
Ok, the confusion is lifting a bit. And if I see this correctly, you are doing the dfrpg magic system a disservice by this.

What I mean by that is this: almost every other magic system starts out with the spell. If you want to hurt your enemy, you cast a magic missile type spell, if you want to keep yourself safe, you do a shield spell, and so forth. And those spells always work the same way, inside and out.

Fate works from intent first, and the form the spell takes comes second.
For example, the fireball.
I can throw a fireball at someone to try and hurt him. That is probably the most often used case.
But I can also barrage someone with fireballs without actually hitting him, just forcing him to keep his head down.
Or I can throw a fireball at the stack of wooden crates, so they catch on fire.

In my experience, players who say "yeah whatever, that" are going to say that ten sessions in, if you took an hour each session to explain things to them. Taran has got the best idea, I think. Give them some rotes to start with and if they want to expand on their own accords, they can, otherwise they have their assortment of spells and you call it a day.

And I think an actual spell list might help more here, especially if it includes a few unusual spells with good descriptions of what they do. I understand your reluctance to do so, and I think I get what you intended to do with this list, but for one, it is a lot to read and two, it is still confusing as hell. You can take typical spells and convert them into dfrpg spells, that would probably make it easier to follow what things can do.

Mostly though, it might be best to try to get people to say "I will cast a spell that greases up the sideway to stop him from following us", instead of "I call up X shifts of Y against that guy.". I think that's the core of the issue, mostly. The mechanical side can be figured out after that, but that's something many people focus on, including me in the beginning. And that just isn't what fate is about, it's the story of the spell, not the numbers that are important. I know that's very fuzzy and vague, but still, that is the key to this problem, I believe.
“Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
Re: dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2012, 06:11:47 AM »
* "Pikachu I choose you!... tracking spell, force bolt, oh something wasn't 1000% effective & you are going to sit there and sulk in silence now until a fight starts when you "I  summon N shifts of power for a force bolt".

You can't track or summon with spirit evocations.

PS: I don't really like the whole "FATE is about story" thing.