Wings and dropping people

[wolff96]

I think this happened to Doctor Doom once.

One of my favorite comics ever.  Gotta love Squirrel Girl.  The best panel is one where her squirrels are swarming all over his armor and he's managed to grab one and fling it away...  the look on the temporarily airborne squirrel's face is hilarious.   

Of course, when you have a Silver Age level character in the modern age...  is it any wonder she always wins?  It's like building a Submerged character for a Feet in the Water game. 

[Sanctaphrax]

How about this for basic throwing rules:

When grappling an opponent, you may choose to end the grapple with a throw. (You can't take a grappling supplemental action as you do so.) This is effectively an attack. Might (including grappling bonuses) is used to hit, and Athletics or Might may be used to defend. If the attack hits, you may move your target one zone plus one zone for each level of Strength you have in addition to inflicting stress. The weapon rating of a throw is determined by what you throw your target at, plus strength bonuses.

Still need to include falling rules there, but that's a start.

Throwing people into each other would require a stunt, because normal people can't do that.

[JDK002]

How about this for basic throwing rules:

When grappling an opponent, you may choose to end the grapple with a throw. (You can't take a grappling supplemental action as you do so.) This is effectively an attack. Might (including grappling bonuses) is used to hit, and Athletics or Might may be used to defend. If the attack hits, you may move your target one zone plus one zone for each level of Strength you have in addition to inflicting stress. The weapon rating of a throw is determined by what you throw your target at, plus strength bonuses.

Still need to include falling rules there, but that's a start.

Throwing people into each other would require a stunt, because normal people can't do that.

I like the idea for a throw attack option for grapplers, but in this case wouldn't adding fall damage on top of that break the fall damage rules?  I can't site the page but I do remember YS saying fall damage is considered to be part of the attack.  This you never get to have your attack damage plus fall damage on top of it.

[Sanctaphrax]

I prefer to ignore the falling rules whenever possible...but that part is quite sensible for most attacks.

Throws are an exception because they actually move you. Suppose I toss you one zone straight up. You can't fly so you fall. Is it fair to make you take stress again? And why are you taking stress from the throw when you didn't hit anything?

And throwing people downwards ought to do extra damage. But how to implement that? What if the throw misses or the grapple ends another way? Does the grapple-ee fall?

[Taran]

Ok, Ok...how about this:

Once you've got your opponent in the air via the grapple, you can make a Might or Fists attack against the opponent who defends with althletics.  (I like athletics because it's the same skill that lets you negate falling damage)  You get a free tag for every zone up you are from the ground.  The attack automatically breaks the grapple.

This way it's a normal attack and instead of 5 stress/zone, you get +2/zone.  Some of these can be removed via declarations by the victim "there was a tree and I used the branches to slow my fall".

If the victim successfully defends then, narratively, he landed safely in some water or mud - a tree broke the fall or maybe he chooses to stay in the air.  He's still clinging to the flyer etc..

[Jack B]

-Allocate the damage like a spray attack?  (Tedronai: you beat me to it)

Gah.  None of this seems very intuitive.

The more I think of this the more I like it.  It's a spray attack because the guy at the bottom breaks the fall of the other guy and they both get hurt less each than the guy who was dropped would have been if he hit the floor. 

Regarding throwing people around, I have a problem with stating that you can throw an opponent 1 +1/strength power zone away, because zones are a very fluid thing.  I've been in fights where a football field was cut into a 2 zone fight.  So if someone got thrown from the 25 yard line to the 25 yard line in the other zone it would be a flight of around 150'.  That would be a 1 zone throw which a pure mortal could do. 

I would prefer to just narrate that the stress from a successful grapple was the result of the defender being thrown within the same zone. 

[Taran]

The more I think of this the more I like it.  It's a spray attack because the guy at the bottom breaks the fall of the other guy and they both get hurt less each than the guy who was dropped would have been if he hit the floor.

Right.  It makes sense if you actually hit.  The problem is when you drop a person, they're DEFINITELY going to hit the ground but they're not necessarily going to hit the other person who's walking around.  Therefore, you need some kind of targetting role to hit the guy on the ground.  Also, if you do some kind of targeting role and you allocate shifts to each opponent, it makes it easier for the person falling to avoid damage....even if you missed your target.  In fact, he's less likely to take damage if you try to target someone else despite the fact that he still fell and hit the ground.

[Jack B]

Right.  It makes sense if you actually hit.  The problem is when you drop a person, they're DEFINITELY going to hit the ground but they're not necessarily going to hit the other person who's walking around.  Therefore, you need some kind of targetting role to hit the guy on the ground.  Also, if you do some kind of targeting role and you allocate shifts to each opponent, it makes it easier for the person falling to avoid damage....even if you missed your target.  In fact, he's less likely to take damage if you try to target someone else despite the fact that he still fell and hit the ground.

For targeting I would think that it should be your grappling check.  The amount of control of your grapple would dictate how well you are able to drop him when you want to drop him.  The target would then check athletics to dodge.  If he succeeds then the grapplee takes the full damage, if the target doesn't dodge then you split the damage as per the spray attack rules.

[Taran]

For targeting I would think that it should be your grappling check.  The amount of control of your grapple would dictate how well you are able to drop him when you want to drop him.  The target would then check athletics to dodge.  If he succeeds then the grapplee takes the full damage, if the target doesn't dodge then you split the damage as per the spray attack rules.

Except, technically, you're supposed to split the attack BEFORE they dodge.  Then they dodge based on how you allocated the shifts.

[Taran]

How about this:

We go back to the 5stress/zone the victim falls.  It's a might check to drop your victim.

If you want to drop the victim(opponent1) on another opponent(2), the Flyer makes a might check to release opponent 1.  This same check is opposed with athletics by opponent 2 (who is on the ground) .  IF he succeeds all stress goes to opponent (1), who can do an athletics to soften the blow.  IF opponent(2) fails, the number by which he fails is taken in stress and subtracted from the total stress inflicted on opponent (1).  (1) can still do an athletics to aleviate some of that damage.  (2) cannot take more than the total damage inflicted -1.

Basically, you can't do MORE damage to the person on the ground than the total from the fall and the person dropped has to take at least 1 point of damage.

So lets say you roll 8 Might and you're dropping someone 3 zones (15 stress).  If the person on the ground only rolls a 5, then he takes 3 stress and the other 12 stress goes to the person who fell.  The person who fell can still do athletics to soften the fall.  At least 1 point of stress has to be allocated to the falling person, so the max damage the person on the ground can take is 14.

It's simple but it Seems complicated to me...and not very smooth.  And it uses the falling rules, which no-one likes.

[Taran]

How about this for basic throwing rules:

When grappling an opponent, you may choose to end the grapple with a throw. (You can't take a grappling supplemental action as you do so.) This is effectively an attack. Might (including grappling bonuses) is used to hit, and Athletics or Might may be used to defend. If the attack hits, you may move your target one zone plus one zone for each level of Strength you have in addition to inflicting stress. The weapon rating of a throw is determined by what you throw your target at, plus strength bonuses.

Still need to include falling rules there, but that's a start.

Throwing people into each other would require a stunt, because normal people can't do that.

Why not have the weapon value be equal to X*Zone thrown?  Maybe it's 1 stress/zone, so if you throw them 3 zones, it's weapon 3.  That way if you throw someone down they'll take more damage.

I throw him 1 zone over the edge of the cliff (which is 5 zones deep), so the weapon value for the attack is 6.  Keep different objects(like iron fence posts) as declarations...less book-keeping that way.

[Sanctaphrax]

Once you've got your opponent in the air via the grapple, you can make a Might or Fists attack against the opponent who defends with althletics.  (I like athletics because it's the same skill that lets you negate falling damage)  You get a free tag for every zone up you are from the ground.  The attack automatically breaks the grapple.

Amusingly, this is less dangerous than just falling if you go by the 5 stress/zone interpretation.

Which is probably a good thing, give how silly-deadly falls are.

Why not have the weapon value be equal to X*Zone thrown?  Maybe it's 1 stress/zone, so if you throw them 3 zones, it's weapon 3.  That way if you throw someone down they'll take more damage.

I throw him 1 zone over the edge of the cliff (which is 5 zones deep), so the weapon value for the attack is 6.  Keep different objects(like iron fence posts) as declarations...less book-keeping that way.

I'd rather have things that you throw people into be weapons. If they're Declarations, then what do you do if the SPIKED FENCE Aspect is already there? And why is it easier to throw someone when there's a fence to throw them into?

Remember, the target only moves if you hit under what I wrote.

Which contributes to the issue with dropping people. If you just end the grapple normally or miss your throw, do they fall? Or do they automatically manage to cling to your leg or something?

Making throws automatically move their targets might fix that, I suppose.

Regarding throwing people around, I have a problem with stating that you can throw an opponent 1 +1/strength power zone away, because zones are a very fluid thing.  I've been in fights where a football field was cut into a 2 zone fight.  So if someone got thrown from the 25 yard line to the 25 yard line in the other zone it would be a flight of around 150'.  That would be a 1 zone throw which a pure mortal could do. 

I would prefer to just narrate that the stress from a successful grapple was the result of the defender being thrown within the same zone.

1. All zone ranges have this issue. Fortunately, it's usually easy to narrate things into making sense.
2. That would defeat the purpose. The whole reason these throw rules is being made is to represent attacks that forcibly move their targets into different zones.

How about this:

We go back to the 5stress/zone the victim falls.  It's a might check to drop your victim.

If you want to drop the victim(opponent1) on another opponent(2), the Flyer makes a might check to release opponent 1.  This same check is opposed with athletics by opponent 2 (who is on the ground) .  IF he succeeds all stress goes to opponent (1), who can do an athletics to soften the blow.  IF opponent(2) fails, the number by which he fails is taken in stress and subtracted from the total stress inflicted on opponent (1).  (1) can still do an athletics to aleviate some of that damage.  (2) cannot take more than the total damage inflicted -1.

Basically, you can't do MORE damage to the person on the ground than the total from the fall and the person dropped has to take at least 1 point of damage.

So lets say you roll 8 Might and you're dropping someone 3 zones (15 stress).  If the person on the ground only rolls a 5, then he takes 3 stress and the other 12 stress goes to the person who fell.  The person who fell can still do athletics to soften the fall.  At least 1 point of stress has to be allocated to the falling person, so the max damage the person on the ground can take is 14.

It's simple but it Seems complicated to me...and not very smooth.  And it uses the falling rules, which no-one likes.

I have a simpler, and in my opinion better, idea.

Take the extra shifts from your attack vs guy 1 and apply them to an attack against guy 2. You don't necessarily have to use all of the extra shifts, but you can if you want.

If you worry about the power of this, you can make people declare how many shifts they're dedicating to hitting which guy before knowing whether they hit guy 1. And if they miss, the whole attack fails.

(This is very similar to the existing spray attack rules, by the way.)

[Taran]

Remember, the target only moves if you hit under what I wrote.

Which contributes to the issue with dropping people. If you just end the grapple normally or miss your throw, do they fall? Or do they automatically manage to cling to your leg or something?

Making throws automatically move their targets might fix that, I suppose.

I like the cling to your leg thing...then they can initiate a grapple on their own turn.  Or maybe they just fell harmlessly down.

I have a simpler, and in my opinion better, idea.

Take the extra shifts from your attack vs guy 1 and apply them to an attack against guy 2. You don't necessarily have to use all of the extra shifts, but you can if you want.

If you worry about the power of this, you can make people declare how many shifts they're dedicating to hitting which guy before knowing whether they hit guy 1. And if they miss, the whole attack fails.

(This is very similar to the existing spray attack rules, by the way.)

I don't know what you mean.  Is the stress based on the attack or the falling damage?

So the Fly-Girl would throw the Fally-McPlunge by rolling a contested might.  IF successful, Fally would take stress based on the Falling Damage only and the target on the ground (I can't think of a clever name) would take stress based on the extra shifts (assuming he failed to defend)?

[atavistic]

I think the biggest problem that people are encountering has been reached because they are looking at this as a mechanical problem rather then a narrative issue.  It shouldn't be a question of how do I mechanically model this flyer vs walker event but rather how do I narrate it.

Being in the air does not have to place you in a different zone.  A zone can be as small as an outhouse or as big as a parking lot, and its dimensions are determined by the narrative value rather then the square footage.  Being airborne doesn't place you in a different zone unless that air space has some narrative value (like say a complex air and ground battle with combatants spread through out).

 (Falling out of a airspace zone is better modeled as damage from an environmental hazard aspect rather then a fall damage event, where the smart person simply concedes out of the fight rather then try to absorb the damage of the hazard.) 

Additionally a 'grapple' the fancy block is not definitively the same as two people grappling.  Narratively all it indicates is a struggle that starts with some initial advantage as described by the first aspect.  All the other movements of that struggle are created by the grapple aspects or by the stress generated.

If you want to snatch someone up and drop them to the ground then all it really needs to be is a starting aspect "grabbed" done as a maneuver and then each round you place aspects like 'aloft', 'up in the sky', 'its so high up here', on the target on each free grapple maneuver.  Then tag them all when you drop his ass to the ground using a regular old attack.
Remember simply breaking the grapple by successful attack doesn't remove the aspects that have been placed, so the victim can still be 'grabbed' even if he ends the grapple by some successful action, (a smart person does it by maneuver of grabbing them back, or removing one of the grapple maneuvers).

(PS a smart flyer would use their athletics to make declarations about their altitude or aerial placement in flight each round and then tag to invoke for effect against people trying to attack them in ways that wouldn't hit a flying target.)

You don't need a huge series of extra rules to adjudicate this unusual situation just a little creativity.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't know what you mean.  Is the stress based on the attack or the falling damage?

So the Fly-Girl would throw the Fally-McPlunge by rolling a contested might.  IF successful, Fally would take stress based on the Falling Damage only and the target on the ground (I can't think of a clever name) would take stress based on the extra shifts (assuming he failed to defend)?

The attack. These rules should work for someone on the ground who's throwing people at each other. Once we add something to the throw rules I suggested to account for falling, they'll also work for dropping people onto one another.

Example: Bergelmir the half-giant is grappling a zombie and wants to throw it at a demon. He rolls a 9 on the throw roll, against an Athletics defence of 4. He allocates 5 shifts to the zombie, hitting it with one threshold success. Then the zombie is launched into another zone, and the demon in that zone faces an accuracy 4 attack. Both attacks are weapon 6 from Bergelmir's Strength.

I think the biggest problem that people are encountering has been reached because they are looking at this as a mechanical problem rather then a narrative issue.  It shouldn't be a question of how do I mechanically model this flyer vs walker event but rather how do I narrate it.

...

You don't need a huge series of extra rules to adjudicate this unusual situation just a little creativity.

Wrong.

This stuff is easy to narrate. The mechanical bit is substantially more problematic.

If you're high up enough that you can't be punched, you're in another zone. Accessing aerial zones is much of what Wings does.

And with a grapple you can move people.

So what happens mechanically if you grapple, then move upwards, then drop?