Messing With The Skill List

[Blechpirat]

I can get behind the idea of merging social skills, but I don't think Deceit and Intimidation go well together. Con men aren't that scary, and thugs aren't that tricky.

The good ones are. James Bond for example. And he also has a high rapport.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't think I would mess with the Skills very much, though certain other tweaks I use kinda change how the Skills are used.  For example I kinda changed Mental and Social stress a bit in that Social stress is only inflicted by attacks meant to change the character's image, whereas Mental stress is inflicted by attacks meant to change the character's mind.

This makes Conviction useful in making an unflappable character, as it should be, and it also makes persuasive characters more powerful against casters, since they can throw them off their game with Mental attacks.

I do like the idea, but it's a pretty significant change. I'm reluctant to try it for exactly that reason.

But most people who want car chases in their games want actual car chases, not a gun battle with moving cars as a set piece.

Well, yeah.

But cars aren't just for car chases. Given how much violence your typical Dresden scenario involves, I think it's really lame if a wheelman has to either make up rules or get out of his car when people start shooting.

I half-assed some car chase mechanics in a session a few months back. I have the

...

Although we should maybe take car chase discussion out of here and into a separate thread, and leave this one for skills?

I do like the look of that system, but you're right. Another time.

The good ones are. James Bond for example. And he also has a high rapport.

That doesn't erase the problem with merging Deceit and Intimidation, though.

Look at Harry. He's a scary and provocative chap, definitely high Intimidation. But his Deceit is nothing special. So merged Deceit and Intimidation would make him significantly harder to write up.

[admiralducksauce]

I'd break social skills down into Guile, Presence, and Empathy.

Guile covers manipulating people to give you what you want. It's an active, offensive skill. That makes it sound a little negative, but that's because it's self-serving. If you're out there being generous there's likely not a reason to ROLL anything. Manipulation, persuasion, lying, bluffing.
Possibly disguise as well. You are convincing the target to change their mind.

Presence is first impressions, intimidation, provocation, public speaking. Loud, overt displays of social prowess. You are forcing your will upon your target, and making their mind up for them because the alternatives are not as interesting / too scary / too shaming to accept.

Empathy I see as more defensive/detection-oriented, and doesn't need too much changed IMO. It's just kind of wishy-washy when you would use it to "attack" is all.

I don't think I would mess with the Skills very much, though certain other tweaks I use kinda change how the Skills are used.  For example I kinda changed Mental and Social stress a bit in that Social stress is only inflicted by attacks meant to change the character's image, whereas Mental stress is inflicted by attacks meant to change the character's mind.

This makes Conviction useful in making an unflappable character, as it should be, and it also makes persuasive characters more powerful against casters, since they can throw them off their game with Mental attacks.

FWIW, and regarding Conviction, I try to get an idea of what each of my PCs' Conviction is actually about. What DO they believe in? And then I let them use Conviction to defend against any social stressors that would directly affect that belief if they want. Otherwise, yeah, I generally agree with Opidiomancer. I know my POV of where the Mental/Social Stress tracks divide isn't exactly RAW, but I like that "Composure / Reputation" feel more than the "Psyche / Everything that's not the former" feel.

Finally, I freely admit you can come up with examples that my model doesn't work with either. That's true for anything anyone's going to come up with.

[Ophidimancer]

I do like the idea, but it's a pretty significant change. I'm reluctant to try it for exactly that reason.

I'm pretty sure I got the idea from Shards of FATE, though.

[Mojosilver]

Wow cool subject.
hmm Athletics seems to be over powered and might under powered. not sure how to fix that.
i'd combind drive and contacts in to streetwise. know the people and the town. alertness and investigation in to Perception. i don't think i'd keep presence. it seems to be even less usefull then endurance. put at 3 and foget about it. not sure what to with social defense. craftsmanship and resources seems more like backround aspects to be handled as aspects. preformance could be handled by the social skills and/or knowledge skills. that my two cents. thanks bye.

[Sanctaphrax]

Looks like there's more discontent with the social skills than I figured.

I kind of like the ones we have now, but I'd be willing to try a revision.

Warning: I'm about to philosophize.

When writing a skill, you need to think about what kind of characters would be good at the skill in question. Then you need to try and make it so that the skill covers the things those characters have in common without covering the things they don't.

Look at Might, for example.

Pretty much anybody who's good at lifting stuff can break stuff, and if someone who's really good at lifting stuff and breaking stuff gets ahold of you you're in trouble. So Lifting, Breaking, and Wrestling all make sense as Might trappings.

Unarmed attacks, however, would not make a good Might trapping. Because there exist lots of high-Might characters that aren't terribly good at punching. So despite the obviously huge applications of physical strength in a fistfight, Brawling should not be a Might trapping.

Martial artists might point out that Wrestling isn't just about muscle either. But that actually doesn't matter. Because the type of character that has high Might can generally crush the life out of you.

When writing a social skill list, you should divide the skills by type of character.

Which is why I like the current social skill list. "He's a high-Rapport type" is actually a meaningful description of a character. And if my character for whatever reason deserves a high Rapport, I don't need to worry that he's going to acquire trappings that don't make sense for him.

That's also the issue I see with a lot of these adjustments. They seem to be divided by how the skills work rather than by the types of character that would take the skills.

Did that make sense?

[Lamech]

The main thing I would do is say that one gets access to a library (somehow) equal to their lore, and another equal to their scholarship. Super-scientist probably has subscriptions to all the best journals.

Also I would let someone with craft get access to a workspace of their skill. Its silly IMO that crafts requires a second skill to be useful. (Especially one you can fairly well replace the skill in the first place.)

[admiralducksauce]

When writing a social skill list, you should divide the skills by type of character.

Which is why I like the current social skill list. "He's a high-Rapport type" is actually a meaningful description of a character. And if my character for whatever reason deserves a high Rapport, I don't need to worry that he's going to acquire trappings that don't make sense for him.

That's also the issue I see with a lot of these adjustments. They seem to be divided by how the skills work rather than by the types of character that would take the skills.

Did that make sense?

It makes sense. I think another related issue might be the squishiness of the social skill trappings. It's pretty clear when you use Guns or Resources, but it's not always so cut and dried when to use Empathy over Rapport, or Presence over Rapport, or if lying just a little bit automatically switches you to using Deceit.

Mostly I understand what people are saying about needing so many social skills, but theory-wise, you need just about as many skills to be a well-rounded social character as you do to be a well-rounded combat character. Compare:

Guns
Unarmed
Weapons
Athletics
Endurance

with

Rapport
Deceit
Intimidate
Empathy
Presence

[Ophidimancer]

You should probably include Alertness on the combat list as well.

[Tedronai]

The only time that a character statted for use of weapons or guns will actually need fists is if they've accepted a compel to that effect.
The same cannot be said of a character with high rapport needing to use deceit to accomplish the task at hand.

[Ophidimancer]

The only time that a character statted for use of weapons or guns will actually need fists is if they've accepted a compel to that effect.
The same cannot be said of a character with high rapport needing to use deceit to accomplish the task at hand.

But what about those times when someone needs to put a False Face Forward?  Rapport is good in the social game, but it won't help you lie, and sometimes your opponent just doesn't want to hear the truth.

[Centarion]

That's the point. In order to be good in all/most social conflicts you need to be able to talk to people normally in a not deceitful non threatening manner, so you need Rapport. You also need to be able to lie and detect lies, so Empathy and Deceit. You also want to be able to take a hit, so Presence. You do not necessarily need intimidate, but it can also be useful.

On the other hand,  in order to be good in a fight you need Fists + the footwork stunt, and Endurance. You can do similar things for all the other skills. You really do not need the other skills, since a character with weapons, will generally always be armed, at least with that one backup knife. If not it is because they took one or more compels, which is not really a bad thing for them.   

[admiralducksauce]

OK, your example is cheating a bit by using the Footwork stunt.    You could take similar stunts for social skills to reduce the total number of skills you need, sure.

And a Fists character is not a well-rounded combat character. I didn't say ineffective, but they're certainly not well-rounded. Thing is, a specialist like that is somewhat tolerated and maybe even expected in some groups. However, you get funny looks if you say "My character can handle this negotiation, but only if I lie ALL THE TIME."

I don't know, guys. I'm really waffling here. I kind of think either 1) Rapport and Deceit could be combined as your catch-all persuasion/manipulation skill, or 2) Rapport and Empathy could be combined as a "regular conversation / sensing motives" skill, leaving Deceit for the hardcore manipulation. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like #2. Drop Rapport; the name "Empathy" is pretty good at covering some of those trappings IMO.

[Centarion]

I agree, I do not know of all that many character types that are good a Rapport and bad at Empathy or vice verse. Generally good conversationalists can read people. The downside to this is that it makes new "Empathy" pretty much required, while Deceit and Intimidate are less useful. On the other hand combining those is not as clean since there are plenty of non-scary liars and scary blunt people.

About the footwork thing, which one trapping would you take from one social skill and put on another to cover all/most types of conflicts? With physical and footwork, you get all attacks and defenses on one skill, and stress from Endurance. How do you replicate this with social? You just cant, you cannot be a lie detector, a liar, and a conversationalist with one stunt and one skill.

[admiralducksauce]

You just cant, you cannot be a lie detector, a liar, and a conversationalist with one stunt and one skill.

Nor can you be a martial artist, artful dodge, and a gunslinger with one stunt and one skill. However, I totally agree that most of the time our liar is going to want to mix and match lying and conversation. It's just natural. Most times your typical martial artist will NOT be combining Unarmed with Guns in the same manner.

Hmm. okay, my counterexample is a bit unfair too. Perhaps Unarmed and Weapons is a better example. It can overlap in a split-second (see any Jackie Chan movie) just like Rapport and Deceit, so maybe we should combine them as well.

Or just have people take more trapping-reassignment stunts.