The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread

[Serack]

3) I do think that AA was the first to "officially" finger Mab on the forums.  That said, the most voracious pusher of the "Mab fixed LC" is Mrs. Duck.  You really aught to include one of her "defend my theory against all comers" threads (e.g. here) if only to showcase the Darkest Guardian of the MFLCT (Mab fixed Little Chicago Theory).  It also contains a poll where people voted for the various options.

Bah, now you have me wanting to go through 39 pages of thread looking for the best posts justifying the different options Ms. Duck gave.

[kytheros]

If we're going in that direction, I could see a Little Earth by the end of the series.

Hmmm. He did upgrade and expand the area it covered at one point (initially 2 mile radius, then a 4 mile radius in a later book, from Burnham harbor? I think?) ... but it still never covered all that large an area of Chicago itself.

Oooh ... the 'Za Lord's Guard (and/or the Militia) could be utilized to help keep a future Little Chicago (or wider area construct) up to date. Might need to be expanded, though.

[Ziggelly]

Didn't he already use the Za Lord's Guard to help with LC?

[TheCuriousFan]

Didn't he already use the Za Lord's Guard to help with LC?

No, he did it all himself (except for making the pewter structures IIRC).

[lovejoy69]

...  I seem to remember the battle at the end of SK (and I think the spot Lea took him) being referred to as something like "Chicago above Chicago" or something like that...  But it was a 1:1 scale I think...

SK chap. 23, paperback p. 264. When Harry realized that they were apparently on the clouds, Lea answered his questions as, "This is the world between, the sometimes place. Where Chicago and Faerie meet, overlap. Chicago-Over-Chicago, if you like. This is the place the Queens call forth when the Sidhe desire to spill blood."  Harry saw it as the land which underlies Chicago and the water of the lake. Once Harry imagined the buildings he knew, Harry was envisioning the Chicago he himself lived in. It seems reasonable that Harry mentally constructed them as full-size buildings, not a miniaturized scale version.

[TheCuriousFan]

He always said that he was a magical 'thug'; using raw power to overcome his lack of refinement and accuracy.

He's actually good for his age in the skill department according to Bob IIRC.

this is true, then perhaps the 'new' Harry could have grabbed Little Chicago before it slagged out, and then found a way to get it to the 'old' Harry. Or, he could have found a way to 3D scan the model so that it could be re-created by some computer-driven machinery. Someone non-magical, like Waldo Butters, would be needed to handle the details.

I could have sworn there was a WoJ about the fact that pewter doesn't do well in fires and that it had the house fall on it.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

He's actually good for his age in the skill department according to Bob IIRC.

True, but his skillset is also heavily skewed towards fairly crude brawling-type magic, particularly before WN; I think Harry can be a skilled thug while still being a thug compared to a wizard with Molly's strengths. (And Harry has had rather a lot of practice at the brawling.)

[Raptor]

I'm leaning toward LC being a measuring stick for Harry's progress.

In PG, it takes him an hour or more with a full cleans and ritual to use it, and killing himself doing so is a concern.

then he gets it down to a half hour or so.

Finally, he gets the prep-time down to 10min (maybe less)

Also, look at the magical gegaws he makes:
1st potions and half-assed charms
then more whole assed charms like the kinetic ring and bear-buckle.

Finally, we get work like his duster, super shield bracelet, kinetic knucklers, and of course LC (which is improved upon as well over time).

I think they're being used to show Harry's growth more subtly than DBZ scouter...

And that could be enough of a payoff. After all, Jim didn't invest a ton of work in LC, he had HARRY investing work, but it was all offscreen (afaik)

[Raptor]

I've had a thought on the "Who Fixed Little Chicago?" question, and my current front runner is...

...
...Bob

Of everybody/thing that we've seen by that point, Bob fill the Means/Motive/Opportunity requirements the best.

Means:
We have from Bob that building Little Chicago is something very few individuals could do. Whoever fixed it needed to have a lot of magical/thaumaturgical knowledge as well as an intimate, working knowledge of LC to know that there was a flaw, let alone fix it. That eliminates most of the Mortal world, and Nevernever.

Bob, however, helped Harry build it and was there every step of the way. He probably even had a direct "hand" in some of the really fine, fiddly bits.

Opportunity:
Anything that would want to fix LC would have to be able to cross Harry's threshold AND circumvent his wards... and a very stubborn steel door. We also know that Harry doesn't have any mirrors in his apartment, denying easy access to those who can/do use them. They'd also have to know about Harry's lab (all things considered, not a HUGE hurdle, but the trap door IS cleverly hidden by a throw rug).

None of that matters for Bob, as he is already inside, in the lab (where, by the by, he would have seen anyone who came in).

Also, Bob knows about LC. At this point in the story, very few people know about it... Basically limited to Harry, Bob, and maybe Thomas & Mouse. If you don't even know about it, how can you know that it has a fatal (literally) flaw that needs to be fixed, or how to fix it?

The "Means" part eliminates Mouse (no thumbs) and Thomas (doesn't know enough). Harry didn't fix it because he didn't know it was broken.

That leaves Bob.

Motive:
This one is sticky. I can't come up with a clear motive for Bob, other than he likes Harry, and doesn't want Harry or himself to get blowed up.

Now, here's the sticky part.

Mab

She's the queen of Air and Darkness. Bob is an Air spirit. I'm WAGing that perhaps Mab was able to speak to Bob, whose nature and history puts him in her domain, and told him that LC would or could go BOOM! if Harry tried to use it, and had (commanded) him to fix it.

While I'm WAGing I'll throw out two more:
1) Mab did this while tending to Lea's "garden" during Lea's "Reeducation", and fulfilling Lea's duty of watching out for Harry.

2) All beings on the order of power that Mab is don't see time in the same manner as mortals. I'm guessing that she has a similar perspective as Uriel (ie: time isn't linear, like driving in a car, but laid out to see in its entirety, like a street map). She either saw that it would explode, or looked in and saw that they missed something.

Now, as to why Bob doesn't seem to remember this. I think that it was actually another aspect of Bob's personality that we haven't seen onscreen yet, that Bob may not know about himself (like Evil Bob), and Mab was talking to THAT Bob.

We know Bob has a significant history in Winter, and specifically with Mab. We also know that parts of him are hidden, even from himself (like Evil Bob). I think it could be possible that there's a "Winter Bob" from his time in Winter.

One more possible cluebat: When talking about it afterwards, Bob repeatedly refers to whoever fixed it as "He". Bob could have said "They" to account for the fact that it could have been female (or identified itself as such), or could have been plural.

The repeated "he" could have been Bob's subconscious (or however that works for spirits) way of telling Harry that he did it.

Thoughts?

[KevinSig]

Actually, I'd really appreciate it if you, or someone else took the opportunity to write up at least one time travel theory in this topic (or another that can be dedicated to others responding and theorizing on time travel LC fixing theories.)  Which I would then link to in the OP under that bullet.

Done, but I created it as a separate thread.  So it can be discussed, without bogging down the discussion to off topic ideas.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,34004.0.html

[lovejoy69]

I've had a thought on the "Who Fixed Little Chicago?" question, and my current front runner is...
...Bob
Of everybody/thing that we've seen by that point, Bob fills the Means/Motive/Opportunity requirements the best.

Means:
We have from Bob that building Little Chicago is something very few individuals could do. Whoever fixed it needed to have a lot of magical/thaumaturgical knowledge as well as an intimate, working knowledge of LC to know that there was a flaw, let alone fix it. That eliminates most of the Mortal world, and Nevernever.

Bob, however, helped Harry build it and was there every step of the way. He probably even had a direct "hand" in some of the really fine, fiddly bits.

Opportunity:
Anything that would want to fix LC would have to be able to cross Harry's threshold AND circumvent his wards... and a very stubborn steel door. We also know that Harry doesn't have any mirrors in his apartment, denying easy access to those who can/do use them. They'd also have to know about Harry's lab (all things considered, not a HUGE hurdle, but the trap door IS cleverly hidden by a throw rug).

None of that matters for Bob, as he is already inside, in the lab (where, by the by, he would have seen anyone who came in).

Also, Bob knows about LC. At this point in the story, very few people know about it... Basically limited to Harry, Bob, and maybe Thomas & Mouse. If you don't even know about it, how can you know that it has a fatal (literally) flaw that needs to be fixed, or how to fix it?
The "Means" part eliminates Mouse (no thumbs) and Thomas (doesn't know enough). Harry didn't fix it because he didn't know it was broken.
That leaves Bob.

Motive:
This one is sticky. I can't come up with a clear motive for Bob, other than he likes Harry, and doesn't want Harry or himself to get blowed up.

Now, here's the sticky part.

Mab

She's the queen of Air and Darkness. Bob is an Air spirit. I'm WAGing that perhaps Mab was able to speak to Bob, whose nature and history puts him in her domain, and told him that LC would or could go BOOM! if Harry tried to use it, and had (commanded) him to fix it.

While I'm WAGing I'll throw out two more:
1) Mab did this while tending to Lea's "garden" during Lea's "Reeducation", and fulfilling Lea's duty of watching out for Harry.

2) All beings on the order of power that Mab is don't see time in the same manner as mortals. I'm guessing that she has a similar perspective as Uriel (ie: time isn't linear, like driving in a car, but laid out to see in its entirety, like a street map). She either saw that it would explode, or looked in and saw that they missed something.

Now, as to why Bob doesn't seem to remember this. I think that it was actually another aspect of Bob's personality that we haven't seen onscreen yet, that Bob may not know about himself (like Evil Bob), and Mab was talking to THAT Bob.

We know Bob has a significant history in Winter, and specifically with Mab. We also know that parts of him are hidden, even from himself (like Evil Bob). I think it could be possible that there's a "Winter Bob" from his time in Winter.

One more possible cluebat: When talking about it afterwards, Bob repeatedly refers to whoever fixed it as "He". Bob could have said "They" to account for the fact that it could have been female (or identified itself as such), or could have been plural.
The repeated "he" could have been Bob's subconscious (or however that works for spirits) way of telling Harry that he did it.

We know that Harry has met his other self. It could be Harry-Id or it could be Harry from another dimension. It seems equally logical if there is a Harry in another dimension then there would equally likely be a Bob there also. And if alterna-Bob and/or alterna-Harry saw the fatal flaw in Little Chicago, wouldn't they be motivated to fix the LC in their dimension /and/ the one in our dimension? (For convenience's sake, if I say Bob or Harry, it's the one we know; alterna- will mean the one(s) in one or more other dimensions.) It hasn't been part of Bob's responsibilities to stop intruders. In fact, Bob doesn't even have the right to defend his own skull, to be allowed to actively resist being taken against his will. So if Harry's lab was accessed by alterna-Harry or alterna-Bob or Mab, Bob would observe that as it happened but wouldn't and couldn't prevent it. Depending on how much alike alterna-Harry's life is, compared to Harry's, would alterna-Harry have either the knowledge to negate the wards in the same way that Harry does, or at least enough mutual memory to construct for himself the same kind of entry-talisman that Harry has provided in the past to Thomas and Anastasia?

In terms of Mab, she would have at least two strong motivations. One is obligation, another is possessiveness. Lea promised Margaret to look out for Harry's best interests. Getting blown to bits would clearly not be that, so snuffing out the risk from flawed LC could very likely, in Sidhe logic, be considered as part of being proxy for Lea. And Mab would probably approach from the Nevernever rather than the street entrance, although either one could be done. For possessiveness, Mab wants Harry for her WK. For years she deprived herself of any useful Knight service from Slate or from a potential replacement because she waited to get Harry. Thus, fixing LC would be quite reasonable to Mab so that Harry wouldn't use it and get killed by doing so, either prior to become her Knight or during his service. 

[Raptor]

We know that Harry has met his other self. It could be Harry-Id or it could be Harry from another dimension. It seems equally logical if there is a Harry in another dimension then there would equally likely be a Bob there also. And if alterna-Bob and/or alterna-Harry saw the fatal flaw in Little Chicago, wouldn't they be motivated to fix the LC in their dimension /and/ the one in our dimension? (For convenience's sake, if I say Bob or Harry, it's the one we know; alterna- will mean the one(s) in one or more other dimensions.) It hasn't been part of Bob's responsibilities to stop intruders. In fact, Bob doesn't even have the right to defend his own skull, to be allowed to actively resist being taken against his will. So if Harry's lab was accessed by alterna-Harry or alterna-Bob or Mab, Bob would observe that as it happened but wouldn't and couldn't prevent it. Depending on how much alike alterna-Harry's life is, compared to Harry's, would alterna-Harry have either the knowledge to negate the wards in the same way that Harry does, or at least enough mutual memory to construct for himself the same kind of entry-talisman that Harry has provided in the past to Thomas and Anastasia?

In terms of Mab, she would have at least two strong motivations. One is obligation, another is possessiveness. Lea promised Margaret to look out for Harry's best interests. Getting blown to bits would clearly not be that, so snuffing out the risk from flawed LC could very likely, in Sidhe logic, be considered as part of being proxy for Lea. And Mab would probably approach from the Nevernever rather than the street entrance, although either one could be done. For possessiveness, Mab wants Harry for her WK. For years she deprived herself of any useful Knight service from Slate or from a potential replacement because she waited to get Harry. Thus, fixing LC would be quite reasonable to Mab so that Harry wouldn't use it and get killed by doing so, either prior to become her Knight or during his service.

Okay:

Id-Harry is Harry. His basal impulses maybe, but still Harry. I'm no going to assume that Harry has dissociative personality disorder and all of a sudden ran off to fix something he didn't even know was wrong, without any memory of doing so, and nobody commenting on it. Likewise, there's absolutely no indication that his Id flew out of his mind and manifested a body to fix it in an Onslaught episode.

Alterna-anybody, and future anybody: How would they know there was a problem? The only way Bob knows that there was a problem was that it was fixed. The only other option was that Harry's head gets blown off (per Bob). So, if that happens... how can Alterna/Future-Harry do anything about it. Its tough to see to fix things if you don't have a head.

Time travel/alternate dimensions within the story are far too messy for my tastes, and I hope like hell Jim doesn't do that. There's far too much going on now to have jumps backwards, forwards, sideways, or to other universes all together without it turning into a big mess.

Mab: Yes, essentially I have BOB fixing LC, because he has the means and opportunity. Mab provides the motive (wanting Harry, needing to protect him, and also needing him to be able to get to Arctis Tor).

I'm just WAGing at Bob having another personality/version that he was ordered to keep under lock and key and forget about, since we've already seen it twice in the real world (Kemmler-Bob and Cowl-Bob) If so Bob in the service of Winter or affiliated with Mab in some way would be radically different from Harry influenced Bob.

[kytheros]

As for a time traveling fix ... it would have to be:
Iteration 1: Harry, Little Chicago, and the building blow up, Someone doesn't like that and wants to change it and so goes back in time;
Iteration 2: Someone fixes Little Chicago because they want to change Harry's being blown up, Little Chicago doesn't kill Harry, Someone sets in motion chain of events to cause either their own or Harry's trip to go back and fix Little Chicago at some point in the future;
Iteration 3: Someone/Harry goes back in time to events of PG and fixes Little Chicago because they had received something telling them to do so because of the chain of events set in motion via Iteration 2, Little Chicago doesn't kill Harry, Someone/Harry sets up the chain of events to cause them to go back and fix Little Chicago in the future
Iteration 4: Someone/Harry goes back in time to events of PG and fixes Little Chicago because they had received something telling them to do so because of the chain of events set in motion via the previous Iteration, Little Chicago doesn't kill Harry, Someone/Harry sets up the chain of events to cause them to go back and fix Little Chicago in the future
Repeat Iteration 4

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Alterna-anybody, and future anybody: How would they know there was a problem? The only way Bob knows that there was a problem was that it was fixed.

Because Harry or Bob have all the time in the future to tell them.

Time travel/alternate dimensions within the story are far too messy for my tastes, and I hope like hell Jim doesn't do that.

To each their own, but I can see it being a lot neater than kytheros' example:

Step 1; the events of PG as we see them.
Step 2; Harry at some future point acquires the capacity to travel in time.  Who fixed LC is a mystery he wants to resolve, so he goes back to find out.
Step 3: nobody else is there.  harry realises it must have been him, does the fix, and goes home.

No alternate dimensions, no mess, no fuss.

I'm just WAGing at Bob having another personality/version that he was ordered to keep under lock and key and forget about, since we've already seen it twice in the real world (Kemmler-Bob and Cowl-Bob)

Noe that seems counter-Occamian to me.  I don't even believe in Cowl-Bob; Bob's already been ordered to be rid of his evil necroself by that point, he winks at Harry, so I am sure he is faking it.

[kytheros]

To each their own, but I can see it being a lot neater than kytheros' example:

Step 1; the events of PG as we see them.
Step 2; Harry at some future point acquires the capacity to travel in time.  Who fixed LC is a mystery he wants to resolve, so he goes back to find out.
Step 3: nobody else is there.  harry realises it must have been him, does the fix, and goes home.

No alternate dimensions, no mess, no fuss.

That's true, that's another way to do it. Mine is an example of how to avoid paradox with somebody trying to stop/undo Harry having been blown up by trying Little Chicago the first time.