Veils

[PirateJack]

So I'm in an argument with one of my players because he sees veils (and the way they're described in the rulebook) as going against the stated rules for blocks.

He's claiming that veiling a person renders them immune to attacks, manoeuvres and blocks from multiple targets (assuming they don't break through the veil), which according to the rules is not possible (you can either target multiple people/objects against one action or one person/object against multiple actions, not both). I've ruled it as this:

The veil does not 'prevent' anything. It can work in a variety of ways, but the most common one is to bend light around the target, not to directly block another person's vision (that would be an illusion rather than a veil).

The mechanics for it would essentially be:

1) Pick the target for the veil.
2) Declare what you want to block (bend light around the target, in this case).
3) Roll for strength.
4) If anyone tries to pierce the veil they must roll higher than its strength.

This is exactly the same method used to create a shield, and that's how the rulebook essentially describes it, so I'm going to go with that.

Am I right in this or should veils be restricted as he wants them to be?

[InFerrumVeritas]

Veils tend to block all actions against oneself.  The reason for this is that they can't see you, and thus cannot act against you.  However, unless you spend 2 extra shifts, they also block all of your actions at the same strength.

However, my table has a few exceptions:
-Zone attacks are not blocked.  They don't need to see you for the grenade they threw at the guy next to you to hurt you.  Other zone-wide effects are also probably good too.
-Blocks are not blocked.  If I'm throwing up a shield or laying down suppressive fire, the fact that I can't see you doesn't matter.  You're still not going to get past my force bubble or run into my stream of bullets.

Other things are likely to bypass this as well, such as social attacks (if I know you're in the room, just not where), etc. 

Most things which block attacks are likely to block maneuvers directly against the defended target.  This doesn't prevent the character from maneuvering.

One thing to keep in mind: A veil blocks an enemy from attacking or maneuvering directly against ME.  Not attacking or maneuvering at all.  So my friends are still fair game, as are navel gazing maneuvers. 

[Mr. Death]

The way we've always used veils is they're a block against anyone perceiving you--basically, any direct action against you fails if the attacker can't beat the veil strength with an Alertness, Lore, or Investigation roll (whichever applies). Zone attacks would work, and depending on the nature of the veils, spray attacks might work (if the veil is, say, an illusion of multiple copies of a person).

The +2 zone effect for a block is whether it's protecting multiple people, not whether it's stopping multiple people from acting. A straight up defensive block doesn't need extra shifts to stop gunfire from two sources instead of one.

[InFerrumVeritas]

The +2 zone effect for a block is whether it's protecting multiple people, not whether it's stopping multiple people from acting. A straight up defensive block doesn't need extra shifts to stop gunfire from two sources instead of one.

"Veils often block detection in both directions. Perceiving things outside a veil while you are within it faces a similar block, at half the veil’s strength. Increase the complexity of a veil by 2 in order to create a veil that doesn’t impede looking out at all. (For an evocation veil, this increases the power requirement of the spell by 2.)"
YS276. 

[Taran]

"Veils often block detection in both directions. Perceiving things outside a veil while you are within it faces a similar block, at half the veil’s strength. Increase the complexity of a veil by 2 in order to create a veil that doesn’t impede looking out at all. (For an evocation veil, this increases the power requirement of the spell by 2.)"
YS276.

And how I've always run this is like D&D invisibility vs Improved Invisibility.  If you don't put the extra shifts into the veil, then you can't see well and it's almost impossible to target anyone with attacks.  To effectively attack someone, you have overcome your own veil, and if you succeed, your veil goes away.  It's only really good for hiding from something you don't want to attack.  If you add the extra shifts, the veil doesn't block any of your skills/actions.

I'm just curious (and maybe this is what the OP is asking):  Let's say I know someone is in the zone, but I can't perceive them because of they are protected by a veil.  Do I get an awareness roll and if I fail, am unable to attack the veiled person directly?  (I could still use social attacks/zone attacks etc..)  OR

Could I shoot wildly in the direction of the veiled person and if the attack beats the veil, I'd still hit?

[Haru]

"Veils often block detection in both directions. Perceiving things outside a veil while you are within it faces a similar block, at half the veil’s strength. Increase the complexity of a veil by 2 in order to create a veil that doesn’t impede looking out at all. (For an evocation veil, this increases the power requirement of the spell by 2.)"
YS276.

I would probably judge that by the wizards aspects. If he is the sort to regularly use veils, his veil will be transparent from the inside. If not, the veil will be like walking through fog or whatever might fit the wizard. Like the difference between Harry's and Molly's veils. Molly certainly does not have the strength to spare 2 shifts of power, while Harry should easily be able to do so. Yet, their veils are described very different.
However, if you are attacking from under a veil, it should be dropped.

Veils are defensive blocks, and as such you don't put them on an enemy, you put them on yourself (or a friendly target). On the rest I'm pretty much on par with Mr. Death.

[Taran]

However, if you are attacking from under a veil, it should be dropped.

Veils are defensive blocks, and as such you don't put them on an enemy, you put them on yourself (or a friendly target).

Why couldn't you do an offensive veil (blinding your target)?
Why would attacking break the veil?  Doesn't it only block perception?  So, maybe you perceive the attack and probably its origin, but you still might not be able to actual see/hear the attacker.

As an aside, I see Molly having all her specializations in spirt and veils as well as aspects.  She probably could easily find the two shifts.  In the first novels she was quite bad at veils - Murphy could even detect her, but later on she was quite a bit better.

[Haru]

Why couldn't you do an offensive veil (blinding your target)?

That would be a blinding, not a veil. It would pretty much function the same if you were up against only one opponent, but it would be much different if more than 2 people are participating in a conflict.

Why would attacking break the veil?  Doesn't it only block perception?  So, maybe you perceive the attack and probably its origin, but you still might not be able to actual see/hear the attacker.

That's just my understanding of veils in general. And it is a common trope that veils are only good as long as you don't attack. You can attack and then veil again, but that will still leave you open for a moment.
Also, any character with veiling capacities would basically be able to do a constant stream of what will basically be ambush attacks, and that just doesn't seem very balanced.

As an aside, I see Molly having all her specializations in spirt and veils as well as aspects.  She probably could easily find the two shifts.  In the first novels she was quite bad at veils - Murphy could even detect her, but later on she was quite a bit better.

Murphy is a detective, she's got a high investigation skill and is aware of the supernatural. Also, she didn't see Molly, she detected her because Molly was quite clumsy in her attempt to hide her presence.
Putting everything together, I still think Harry would have more power to put up a veil than Molly. It's just not his style, so he's only able to put up a bad one at best.

[Taran]

Also, any character with veiling capacities would basically be able to do a constant stream of what will basically be ambush attacks, and that just doesn't seem very balanced.

I don't allow ambushes past the first attack.  Once a person knows they're under attack, it's hard to ambush them.  But that's just me.  I know not everyone does that.

[Haru]

I don't allow ambushes past the first attack.  Once a person knows they're under attack, it's hard to ambush them.  But that's just me.  I know not everyone does that.

Ok, probably not an ambush, but something along the line. If you can't see your attacker, you can't defend against them, nor can you attack them in return.

[Mr. Death]

"Veils often block detection in both directions. Perceiving things outside a veil while you are within it faces a similar block, at half the veil’s strength. Increase the complexity of a veil by 2 in order to create a veil that doesn’t impede looking out at all. (For an evocation veil, this increases the power requirement of the spell by 2.)"
YS276.

I wasn't referring to that bit, I was referring to the question of whether a veil placed on one character would stop multiple characters from acting against them (if Molly makes herself invisible, it'd stop everyone in the room from seeing her, not just one, to use an example). Though thank you anyway, I'd completely forgotten about that part.

As for Murphy detecting Molly the first couple times, that was probably a series of declarations on Murphy's part, and compels against Molly's trainee aspect--she hadn't covered scent and sound. If they're separate declarations, Murphy gains +4 to her roll to find her, which alone is probably more than enough to pierce Molly's veils even if Murphy had an abysmal Investigation score (her rote is listed as a 3-shift block in the book).

As to attacking breaking a veil, a veil works at least partially because you're not doing things that draw attention to yourself. Even if the veil is still there, people are going to notice if gunfire starts spilling out of an empty space, or if the air starts rippling as you move, etc. Think of the Predator's cloak--while he's standing still in camouflage, he's all but invisible. But once he starts shooting and moving, you can spot his outline a lot easier.

So attacking might not outright break the veil, but you could easily declare things against those actions to get a boost to seeing through it.

I don't allow ambushes past the first attack.  Once a person knows they're under attack, it's hard to ambush them.  But that's just me.  I know not everyone does that.

Ok, probably not an ambush, but something along the line. If you can't see your attacker, you can't defend against them, nor can you attack them in return.

I agree that there should be some advantage to veiling mid-fight if you're attacking right after. Usually I allow it as a tag on a veiling aspect, rather than a block-to-ambush effect.

[Taran]

My group hasn't run into veils all that much in previous games, but in the one we're starting, one player will be using them extensively, so like PirateJack, I want to make sure I'm adjudicating them properly.

Most blocks only block against a specified action.  So a block against movement (like wrapping someone up in vines) only blocks movement, and it would seem weird to say that attacks don't work because the vines get in the way (although it would make for a good declaration).  And just because an attack hit, it wouldn't break the block against movement.

For me, The same goes for veils.  I don't like saying, "sorry, you can't even try to attack the guy you can't perceive".

This is how I've run it and you can let me know if I'm out of line:

Only Awareness breaks the veil (the enemy must perceive you).  A person, if they somehow know someone is protected by a veil can choose to target the person.  They have to guess which zone the target is in.  If they choose the right zone, they can make an attack and if they beat the Block, they can do damage (minus the block to represent that you got a lucky, glancing hit).  This does not break the veil - although, it might prompt new Awareness checks (maybe to see blood dripping etc).

Any offensive action by the person protected by the veil does not break the veil, but it would prompt new awareness checks which might be at a bonus based on the action.  Talking would prompt an awareness at +1, but a gunshot might be at +3 or 4.  Any successful Awareness checks breaks the veil.

What do you think?

EDIT: any attack that doesn't require you to perceive the target (like area attacks) are not blocked by the veil.
EDIT 2:  Zone-wide maneuvers, or maneuvers on a scene would be an excellent way to break a veil.  A maneuver to knock over a barrel of oil to see footprints would prompt a new taggable awareness check, or a spell maneuver to layer everything in a zone with dust could do the same thing.

[AstronaughtAndy]

I've only browsed this, but I'd like to throw in my two copper pieces on attacking veiled people.

So you're veiled. Great. You're doing pretty good. Folks can't really see you. But then maybe someone makes an Alertness and overcomes your veil. Can they see you? Maybe. Do they have a general idea where you are? Yeah.

And here's the thing: in much the same way that a Guns attack could be a volley of bullets, a Weapons attack could be a few swings of the the sharp metal thing. The sharp metal thing doesnt care that you're invisible. You can't or shouldn't stand still if a guy is swinging an axe in your general vicinity. Maybe you trip and sprain your ankle in the process of getting out of the way.

Did the attacker ever actually see you or hit you? Not necessarily. Did his attack still inflict stress? Yeah.

[Taran]

I've only browsed this, but I'd like to throw in my two copper pieces on attacking veiled people.

So you're veiled. Great. You're doing pretty good. Folks can't really see you. But then maybe someone makes an Alertness and overcomes your veil. Can they see you? Maybe. Do they have a general idea where you are? Yeah.

And here's the thing: in much the same way that a Guns attack could be a volley of bullets, a Weapons attack could be a few swings of the the sharp metal thing. The sharp metal thing doesnt care that you're invisible. You can't or shouldn't stand still if a guy is swinging an axe in your general vicinity. Maybe you trip and sprain your ankle in the process of getting out of the way.

Did the attacker ever actually see you or hit you? Not necessarily. Did his attack still inflict stress? Yeah.

I agree with this, mostly.  I agree that you should still be able to swing at someone who is veiled...but your attacks are likely to be innacurate. This is why I like the veil being able to block attacks to a certain point.  (see the post above).

[Mr. Death]

My group hasn't run into veils all that much in previous games, but in the one we're starting, one player will be using them extensively, so like PirateJack, I want to make sure I'm adjudicating them properly.

Most blocks only block against a specified action.  So a block against movement (like wrapping someone up in vines) only blocks movement, and it would seem weird to say that attacks don't work because the vines get in the way (although it would make for a good declaration).  And just because an attack hit, it wouldn't break the block against movement.

You're thinking of it the wrong way. The way blocks are described in the book, they either block a single target from doing multiple things, or they block a bunch of targets from doing something specific. Wrapping a single target up in vines would restrict them from more than one specific action. A veil would block several people from doing one specific action (perceiving you), just as a shield-type block stops several people from taking the specific action of harming you.

For me, The same goes for veils.  I don't like saying, "sorry, you can't even try to attack the guy you can't perceive".

Well...too bad? I mean, that's pretty much just how things work: You can't directly attack something you can't find. If you can't see someone, how are you going to attack them? It's like going, "I don't like saying, 'Sorry, you can't even try to hit someone with a sword when they're 30 feet away.'"

Only Awareness breaks the veil (the enemy must perceive you).  A person, if they somehow know someone is protected by a veil can choose to target the person.  They have to guess which zone the target is in.  If they choose the right zone, they can make an attack and if they beat the Block, they can do damage (minus the block to represent that you got a lucky, glancing hit).  This does not break the veil - although, it might prompt new Awareness checks (maybe to see blood dripping etc).

I'd say this is the wrong way to do it--it makes it so veils are just like regular blocks, in which case why are you bothering with the veil? And the first bit means veils are only useful at all if you're in multiple-zone combat, which isn't as common as some might think.

This feels like you're trying to nerf how veils work, and I don't see a reason why.

Put it this way: Say you're Molly. You don't have a lot of power to work with, but you can veil like nobody's business. You're up against something with a huge advantage in attacking skill and power (say, they hit with Fists at Great, and they've got Supernatural Strength). Your main defense is simply not being targetable--you throw up a 4-shift veil, which the target has a hard time piercing with its only Average Alertness score. Ergo, Molly is safe because the guy can't target her.

But with your method, Molly is screwed--her specialization in veils is no advantage at all, because you're treating it like a shield block.

That's the purpose of veils--forcing your opponent to go through a (probably) lower skill to attack you instead of trying to overcome what's probably an apex attack skill. Using your method, there's no way that Molly could survive combat for more than a round or two.