Veils

[InFerrumVeritas]

One of the things that I think helps balance veils:

I treat looking at things as a free action.  This may not be RAW.

But it does balance veils.  While a veil has the advantage of stopping nearly everything against you completely, because you can't act against what you can't see, it doesn't cost the opponent an action.  So they can still do things other than try to attack you.  Like shoot your friend.  Normal blocks cost an action if you fail to break them.

"You don't see the wizard girl."  "Okay, I'll shoot this werewolf." 

[Centarion]

An enemy not aware of your presence/existence cannot roll an attack against you at all. This is fundamentally a player/character knowledge distinction. On the other hand a character that know you are present, but does not know where you are can attack you, it just is likely not effective.

In our Molly example, before she throws a snowball she is immune to physical attack (unless they perceived her somehow) since they do not know she exists. She then throws a snowball, since they are not looking at her the snowball is only a general indicator of direction, not a dead giveaway, so they get another Alertness roll (maybe with a +2 bonus, since they now know which way to look, maybe +1 or no bonus). They fail. Now they are aware there is something other than Harry, if they attack Molly she gets a block with strength equal to the Veil strength. This is mechanically similar to a shield, but is natively very different. Instead of softening the blow directly, it represents the fact that the attack was that much less precise (a graze, or a total miss that caused you to have to move awkwardly in the case of stress). If Molly takes a consequence that is appropriate (maybe one that involves lots of blood) this may be compelled/invoked for effect, to make the veil less effective.

The difference between a veil and a shield are many, and a veil is a more powerful defensive option. The veil protects you from attacks, but cannot be pierced by them, this is much stronger than a similar shield since not only does it protect you completely against weak attacks, but it also can protect somewhat against several strong attacks. The downside is that it is either 2 shifts weaker than a comparable shield or blocks you form effecting anything outside it (at 1/2 strength). This is a reasonable mechanical tradeoff.

It should also be noted that a weapons/guns/whatever roll is not always just a representation of how much force you swing your sword with or what level of accuracy you achieve. It can also represent your experience fighting with your method of choice, in this case your experience can give you a sort of 6th sense for where an enemy you are aware of but cannot see is (this is not an actual sense/blind-sense type deal, it is just a reflection of your skill with weapons or whatever helping you to predict where an enemy is), this is how I rationalize an opponent of a veiled target hitting them/getting close (causing stress) without seeing them.

[Mr. Death]

That's a much better block!  Why would I ever put up a 4-shift sheild against attacks?  An enemy can target me and it would merely reduce the attack by 4 shifts.  Veils are much better because they make me completely IMMUNE to all attacks.

Yes, it is. Which is why Molly never gets hit even after the enemy knows she's there somewhere. Under your model, even if Molly's veil is never, ever pierced, she's going to be taking stress every single round. The balance is that it's not a physical defense, or a defense against zone attacks. A veil also makes a penalty on you if you want to perceive, and is severely weakened if you try to act in any obvious manner.

I don't think I said that at all.  If you walk around with a veil up, they make an awareness against the block. that's it.

If they suspect you and want to attack you, they have to attack against the block.

According to you, they get an unimpeded attack roll even though they fail their alertness roll. They fail to overcome the block, but get to attack at full strength anyway.

What you're describing is going to play out as:
"Okay, you're veiled at 4 shifts. None of the badguys can beat that with their Alertness rolls."
"So I'm safe, then?"
"Well, no. The first one attacks you, and rolls a 7. He's got Inhuman Strength, so that's a 5-shift hit. His buddy tags the consequence, and he rolls an 8."
"So they can't see me, at all, but I'm still dead. Why the hell did I even bother with the veil?"

The whole point of doing a veil, thematically and mechanically, is to not worry about the attack roll at all. Molly uses veils for defense against a vampire because she doesn't have the brute force to stop its claws directly. A player uses a veil because it's easier to hide from Alertness than it is to stop a Fists roll.

A veil isn't supposed to be a shield with different flavor text.

[Mr. Death]

One of the things that I think helps balance veils:

I treat looking at things as a free action.  This may not be RAW.

I think it is, if you consider it a declaration.

But it does balance veils.  While a veil has the advantage of stopping nearly everything against you completely, because you can't act against what you can't see, it doesn't cost the opponent an action.  So they can still do things other than try to attack you.  Like shoot your friend.  Normal blocks cost an action if you fail to break them.

"You don't see the wizard girl."  "Okay, I'll shoot this werewolf."

That's how I've usually played it.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

One of the things that I think helps balance veils:

I treat looking at things as a free action.  This may not be RAW.

But it does balance veils.  While a veil has the advantage of stopping nearly everything against you completely, because you can't act against what you can't see, it doesn't cost the opponent an action.  So they can still do things other than try to attack you.  Like shoot your friend.  Normal blocks cost an action if you fail to break them.

"You don't see the wizard girl."  "Okay, I'll shoot this werewolf."

That's probably the best one I've yet seen. Still won't defend against zone-wide attacks, though, which fits.

"I don't see the Wizard girl, but I'm aware that she's here somewhere. I'll fill the room with fire."

[Chrono]

"I don't see the Wizard girl, but I'm aware that she's here somewhere. I'll fill the room with fire."

And let us not forget that sometimes fire happens even when you have no idea that your enemy just happens to be there.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

And let us not forget that sometimes fire happens even when you have no idea that your enemy just happens to be there.

Indeed. This is probably the best model for Veils we're going to get, TBH.

[Mr. Death]

Yeah, there's lots of ways around a veil for a creative player, even if it does prevent any kind of direct attack.

[Taran]

Yes, it is. Which is why Molly never gets hit even after the enemy knows she's there somewhere. Under your model, even if Molly's veil is never, ever pierced, she's going to be taking stress every single round. The balance is that it's not a physical defense, or a defense against zone attacks. A veil also makes a penalty on you if you want to perceive, and is severely weakened if you try to act in any obvious manner.
According to you, they get an unimpeded attack roll even though they fail their alertness roll. They fail to overcome the block, but get to attack at full strength anyway.

What you're describing is going to play out as:
"Okay, you're veiled at 4 shifts. None of the badguys can beat that with their Alertness rolls."
"So I'm safe, then?"
"Well, no. The first one attacks you, and rolls a 7. He's got Inhuman Strength, so that's a 5-shift hit. His buddy tags the consequence, and he rolls an 8."
"So they can't see me, at all, but I'm still dead. Why the hell did I even bother with the veil?"

The whole point of doing a veil, thematically and mechanically, is to not worry about the attack roll at all. Molly uses veils for defense against a vampire because she doesn't have the brute force to stop its claws directly. A player uses a veil because it's easier to hide from Alertness than it is to stop a Fists roll.

A veil isn't supposed to be a shield with different flavor text.

Ummm...no.  You're definitely misunderstanding.

If molly doesn't attack, then nobody gets to attack her.  They don't know she's there because they failed to notice her.  She's perfectly safe.  This is Exactly how you say a veil should work.

IF she does something like, say, throw a snowball, they know she's there and may attempt to hit her.  She's still there, afterall. If she didn't want to be noticed, then she shouldn't have initiated combat.  That is an unwise choice for someone who doesn't want to fight.

When they attack, they still have to overcome her block.  If it's 4, they need to have a total roll or higher.  Failing that, they miss, because they can't see her...but they still know she's around somewhere.

Even if they hit, it reduces their attack by 4 - because they can't see her and it's harder to make an accurate attack against someone you can't see. It's not impossible, just very difficult.  A normal sheild spell would reduce the damage as well but then dissipate after an attack, but because this is a veil it stays up because they still need to make a successful Awareness check.

So, no "unimpeded" attacks.

1.  They have to have a reason to attack in the first place.
2. The block naturally impedes the attack
3.  If there are multiple zones, They have to attack into the correct - which may or may not matter depending on the circumstances.

Now if you mean that they are unimpeded in the sense that they are "allowed to make attacks against an enemy they know is present during a combat", then yes, they are allowed to swing their weapons and fire their guns. 

I like to give people the option to TRY to attack someone they know is there.

And actually, the more I think about it, the more I like it that way.  At this point, I won't be convinced unless there is a third method of adjudicating the veil.  Hopefully all this debate has given some kind answer for the question - one way or another.

[Mr. Death]

Now if you mean that they are unimpeded in the sense that they are "allowed to make attacks against an enemy they know is present during a combat", then yes, they are allowed to swing their weapons and fire their guns. 

No, I mean unimpeded in the sense that they are allowed to make direct attacks against an enemy they cannot see or otherwise locate, and they are able to take action despite not beating a block existing specifically to prevent them from taking that action.

Have you ever seen people try to whack a pinata? You know, how they know it's there somewhere, within arms' reach, and consistently fail to land hits on it? Because they don't know where it is?

It's kinda like that.

"I know it's somewhere in this 100 or so square feet" is not nearly enough information to make any kind of effective attack unless you are literally covering that entire space with your attacks.

IF she does something like, say, throw a snowball, they know she's there and may attempt to hit her.  She's still there, afterall. If she didn't want to be noticed, then she shouldn't have initiated combat.  That is an unwise choice for someone who doesn't want to fight.

Correction. They may attempt to find her. If they still can't find her, they can't hit her.

When they attack, they still have to overcome her block.  If it's 4, they need to have a total roll or higher.  Failing that, they miss, because they can't see her...but they still know she's around somewhere.

Her block is not against their attacks. It's against their ability to target her at all. If they don't beat the block, they cannot target her. If they can't target her, they can't attack her in anything like an effective manner. That's what being able to roll their full-strength attack means: They are attacking her in an effective manner.

In combat, it means they get a chance to beat the block (the Alertness roll) and when that fails, they get to attack--another chance to beat the block, with a higher skill score, without so much as spending a fate point.

You're giving them a free, boosted reroll.

I like to give people the option to TRY to attack someone they know is there.

And there's ways of doing that without this needless complication.

[Centarion]

First, I do not this this method has any boosted complication, I think it is exactly what is allowed within the RAW. I think your method is ridiculously strong, even if you allow a free perception roll every turn and a boosted perception roll whenever you are attacked. Basically, it allows any caster with spirit to escape any physical encounter (against all but the most perceptive opponents, and I cant think of many foes with apex perception skills), for virtually free. You never have to conceded, you just veil. Further, you can just vanish whenever something comes after you, and give them no recourse at all while you re-position/have tankier friends get in the way.  One of the few weaknesses of wizards is that they are often squishy (at least without enchanted item charges), and this allows them to use 1 charge to soak a hit, then veil and jump behind the beefy people, the downside of the bad guy hitting someone else is not really a downside, since that is what you wanted anyway. This does not even take into account the fact that you can attack. Say you have a 6 shift veil, you are unlikely to be perceived, then you use some evocation attack, this is unlikely to grant more than a +2 bonus on the alertness check (if that) unless you make it obvious which direction it came from. The 3 shift block is likely not a factor since you can easily get more than 3 with Discipline, and their defense is likely more than 3. And then they can make no reprisal. It is pretty plainly broken.

Second, it is a block against perception, not a block against attacking at you. Sure they cant see where you are, but since in order to do any sort of attack they have to know you exist (any also which zone you are in, or at least guess), they almost certainly have a general idea. They saw where the snowball came from, or heard you make a noise, or whatever.  Then they swing their giant club all your zone, or shoot 5 shots with their pistol into your general area. They don't have to hit you to inflict stress or even consequences, they just have to make you move quickly to avoid them, this could drain your physical reserves some (small stress), have you scrape yourself/stub your toe (larger stress), or twist your ankle (potentially a mild consequence).  They do not have to cover a whole zone to inflict stress on you (though if they did with a zone attack I wouldn't even let your block apply), an attack roll from then high enough to beat your block implies either they got lucky and hit you, they got close and grazed you, or they made you move akwardly to avoid your clumsy but close swing.

Third, if they cannot attack (target) her at all, her block is certainly against their attacks. You cannot prevent them from attacking you in any way and then say that you are not blocking attacks. Being able to roll their full strength attack against a block does not mean their attack is fully effective, if it did they wouldn't be rolling against a block. Further, one could rule that the veil places an I'm Invisible aspect, that, at least once, can be tagged for a defense/to reduce an attack, so you get to do that too if you want. Further, the attack is not another chance to beat the block, it is not a boosted re-roll. Even if the attack were successful the block wouldn't fade, you get to keep it until they actually see you. This is a special feature of veils that makes them already more powerful defensively than any other block, since they are the only block that (at worst) functions as a block against attacks, and doesn't fade once pierced by an attack.

[PapaD]

If they are aware of your presence, but can't pinpoint you - isn't there an option there for negative modifiers to their attack roll anyway - as if you were tagging the aspects 'you don't know where i am' and 'shooting/attacking' blindly

Not sure how exactly the rules would adjudicate such aspects, but i'm guessing its essentially compels against the attacker

[Taran]

If they are aware of your presence, but can't pinpoint you - isn't there an option there for negative modifiers to their attack roll anyway - as if you were tagging the aspects 'you don't know where i am' and 'shooting/attacking' blindly

Not sure how exactly the rules would adjudicate such aspects, but i'm guessing its essentially compels against the attacker

There are rules for circumstantial modifiers.  It makes perfect sense to give an attacker a penalty in that situation.  I could also see the person using aspect and declarations to increase the power of their block:
Tagging Open Space in a big parking lot because it's hard to pin point someone in a big space
Windy Day because wind covers sound
Cluttered Room because random Stuff block line of sight/effect.

Have you ever seen people try to whack a pinata? You know, how they know it's there somewhere, within arms' reach, and consistently fail to land hits on it? Because they don't know where it is?

It's kinda like that.

It's actually nothing like that.  If you blind someone, the blinded person would have those issues because when you're blinded you have no point of reference within the space they're in.

If a pinata was hanging in a doorway (but was for some reason invisible), it'd be pretty darn easy to hit it if you weren't blind-folded.  It might take a whack or two, but because you can see the room and the door, your strikes are likely to be accurate within the space (not accurate to consistently hit the pinata.)

When I was a kid, we used to play "Dark Tag".  Essentially, it was tag except everyone was in an almost pitch black room.  We were intimately familiar with the surroundings, so for all intensive purposes, the room was "visible".  We knew where the furniture was, how far we were to any point in the room from any other point but we didn't know where anyone was withing the space because it was too dark.  We found people fine despite people hiding and/or running all over.  Granted, we had audio cues, but you get the idea.

Dark tag always finished when someone inevitably fell off a bed and hit their head on the corner of the base-board heater. 

[Mr. Death]

First, I do not this this method has any boosted complication, I think it is exactly what is allowed within the RAW. I think your method is ridiculously strong, even if you allow a free perception roll every turn and a boosted perception roll whenever you are attacked. Basically, it allows any caster with spirit to escape any physical encounter (against all but the most perceptive opponents, and I cant think of many foes with apex perception skills), for virtually free. You never have to conceded, you just veil. Further, you can just vanish whenever something comes after you, and give them no recourse at all while you re-position/have tankier friends get in the way.  One of the few weaknesses of wizards is that they are often squishy (at least without enchanted item charges), and this allows them to use 1 charge to soak a hit, then veil and jump behind the beefy people, the downside of the bad guy hitting someone else is not really a downside, since that is what you wanted anyway. This does not even take into account the fact that you can attack. Say you have a 6 shift veil, you are unlikely to be perceived, then you use some evocation attack, this is unlikely to grant more than a +2 bonus on the alertness check (if that) unless you make it obvious which direction it came from. The 3 shift block is likely not a factor since you can easily get more than 3 with Discipline, and their defense is likely more than 3. And then they can make no reprisal. It is pretty plainly broken.

Second, it is a block against perception, not a block against attacking at you. Sure they cant see where you are, but since in order to do any sort of attack they have to know you exist (any also which zone you are in, or at least guess), they almost certainly have a general idea. They saw where the snowball came from, or heard you make a noise, or whatever.  Then they swing their giant club all your zone, or shoot 5 shots with their pistol into your general area. They don't have to hit you to inflict stress or even consequences, they just have to make you move quickly to avoid them, this could drain your physical reserves some (small stress), have you scrape yourself/stub your toe (larger stress), or twist your ankle (potentially a mild consequence).  They do not have to cover a whole zone to inflict stress on you (though if they did with a zone attack I wouldn't even let your block apply), an attack roll from then high enough to beat your block implies either they got lucky and hit you, they got close and grazed you, or they made you move akwardly to avoid your clumsy but close swing.

Third, if they cannot attack (target) her at all, her block is certainly against their attacks. You cannot prevent them from attacking you in any way and then say that you are not blocking attacks. Being able to roll their full strength attack against a block does not mean their attack is fully effective, if it did they wouldn't be rolling against a block. Further, one could rule that the veil places an I'm Invisible aspect, that, at least once, can be tagged for a defense/to reduce an attack, so you get to do that too if you want. Further, the attack is not another chance to beat the block, it is not a boosted re-roll. Even if the attack were successful the block wouldn't fade, you get to keep it until they actually see you. This is a special feature of veils that makes them already more powerful defensively than any other block, since they are the only block that (at worst) functions as a block against attacks, and doesn't fade once pierced by an attack.

Actually, there's a very good reason the wizard isn't just going to veil and run away from every encounter: Because that would be boring as hell. And, as mentioned several times already, there are several ways any creative player or GM can counteract a veil. As mentioned in the books, any spellcaster with The Sight can do it instantly. Or you throw paint around. Or you create a scene aspect you can tag. Or you come up with any of a dozen creative things besides "roll Alertness and hope for the best."

It's actually nothing like that.  If you blind someone, the blinded person would have those issues because when you're blinded you have no point of reference within the space they're in.

If a pinata was hanging in a doorway (but was for some reason invisible), it'd be pretty darn easy to hit it if you weren't blind-folded.  It might take a whack or two, but because you can see the room and the door, your strikes are likely to be accurate within the space (not accurate to consistently hit the pinata.)

Yes, if you change all the parameters of my example to fit your argument to fit yours. Funny how that works. The same principle applies: If you don't know where something is, it's damn near impossible to hit. Especially if, unlike a pinata, the target is intelligent, watching you, and moving.

When I was a kid, we used to play "Dark Tag".  Essentially, it was tag except everyone was in an almost pitch black room.  We were intimately familiar with the surroundings, so for all intensive purposes, the room was "visible".  We knew where the furniture was, how far we were to any point in the room from any other point but we didn't know where anyone was withing the space because it was too dark.  We found people fine despite people hiding and/or running all over.  Granted, we had audio cues, but you get the idea.

Dark tag always finished when someone inevitably fell off a bed and hit their head on the corner of the base-board heater. 

Irrelevant, because everyone's on an even playing field, and, well, you were all children and children playing a game aren't exactly silent stealth masters.

Bottom line is, going by the numbers, the way you're suggesting veils should work would mean Molly has been dead for four or five books by now. The whole point of a veil is to use a lesser amount of power to bypass attacks by preventing being targetted at all, otherwise it's just a shield.

It's a block against perception. Not a block against physical action.

[Centarion]

You just took 3 paragraphs of arguments about multiple points, and responded to one of them as if it were the whole point. And you even failed to understand where I was going with that point. That point was that there are concession rules in the game for a reason, sometimes you accidentally get into a fight where you are over matched/unprepared and you concede, allowing veils to work as you say they do pretty much negates this. Sure if the person has The Sight this doesn't work as well, but if you are just veiling up and running most other mundane things like paint or other scene aspects wont be good enough (unless you just run after the veiled person with player/gm knowledge and create them, but if you cant target them you certainly cant follow them well enough to throw pain on them).

There is a big difference, as Taran said between being blind and trying to hit something, and being able to see and trying to hit something you cannot see. For example, if I was in a warehouse and heard a sound when blind/in the dark, I likely couldn't hit anywhere near it with a gunshot, however if I could see, I could pinpoint where I thought I heard the sound and then spray bullets at that area, it isn't as good as seeing them (maybe a -2 circumstance penalty) and they get their block strength to represent the fact that I don't know where they are (in addition to athletics representing them trying to dodge).

Lets go back to your original example. There is a troll with 4 Fists skill and Supernatural Strength charging Molly who throws up a 4 shift veil (which he cannot beat easily). This troll doesn't just give up because he can't see, he tries to guess where she is and hit her, he picks what zone he thinks she is in and attacks (if I was the GM I would give him a -2 circumstance penalty since he is trying to flail about in a zone, not attacking with precision), now he has to roll at least a +2 to hit her at all, not counting the fact that she has a free tag on I'm Invisible, or can make a declaration for an aspect like Open Space in response to get a free +2 if he is going to hit.

The next round is even better for her since she can sprint (likely several zones) and then the troll can't keep up while attacking, and if he tries he gets a further -1.

Thus, almost all the time, Molly will still live when she tries to run, it just gives the enemy a chance. Where this really comes up is in enclosed spaces, where you cant get free tags, and the penalties may be smaller, and when you try to fight from under your veil, where the enemy now gets the chance to fight back.

You keep saying that it is a block against perception, but then you keep saying that it completely stops all other physical actions against the target. That is not how a block works, a block does not stop actions that cannot be used to break it. As stated in the books veils are a special case of blocks, so they get some consideration to apply to physical attacks, but they certainly do not grant physical immunity until you are seen.

If this block was anything but a veil, and a player tried to tell me that it does not make sense for the enemy to attack him, I would say "So it is a block against attacks also?" And if he said yes, I would roll an attack, beat his block, and call the block done, and if he said no I would say "Well then it doesn't stop him, maybe you get a favorable circumstance bonus."