Rewriting Possession, Domination, and Demonic Co-Pilot

[JDK002]

Except there's no control test for just using the Powers you'd get for shapeshifting.  There's only a control test if you use the skill boost.

Not sure I would be too concerned about that since the co-pilot ability is tied to being in you shifted form.  The player is always going to be tempted to use that +1 if they think they can survive the control attack.  But if you really wanted to you could treat shifting itself as if you used the co-pilot ability meaning even if you never use the +1 you have to defend against a minor attack.

[Tedronai]

I don't really see how any of these powers allow you to play something like a Hexenwolf.  I see spiritual co-pilot being the closest thing to the old Demonic Co-pilot.  Would you also combine it with one of the other powers listed here - one that lets you share shapeshifting powers (basically statting out the spirit as a separate NPC)?  Or would you take human Form and have the spiritual co-pilot only affect you while shape-shifted.  There's nothing here that lets you trade Powers for debt , which is how I see a Hexenwolf working.

So maybe I'm completely missing something here.

Gaining powers temporarily and paying for them with Sponsor Debt is already covered in the RAW.  All it requires is narrative justification.

[Sanctaphrax]

My remaining objections to Spiritual Co-Pilot in particular have already been voiced, noted, and rejected.

I'll take a read through the other powers over the next while.

Sorry and thanks.

I don't really see how any of these powers allow you to play something like a Hexenwolf...

I'm confused.

You don't need Powers to buy temporary Powers with debt, or at least you shouldn't. Which is good, because neither Demonic Co-Pilot nor Spiritual Co-Pilot does anything even slightly like that.

Hexenwolves have IoP, Beast Change, Echoes Of The Beast, Limitation/Human Form, Inhuman Strength, Inhuman Speed, Natural Weaponry/Claws, Pack Instincts, maybe Demonic Co-Pilot/Spiritual Co-Pilot.

That's what OW says, and it's a pretty good model.

[JDK002]

Sorry and thanks.

I'm confused.

You don't need Powers to buy temporary Powers with debt, or at least you shouldn't. Which is good, because neither Demonic Co-Pilot nor Spiritual Co-Pilot does anything even slightly like that.

Hexenwolves have IoP, Beast Change, Echoes Of The Beast, Limitation/Human Form, Inhuman Strength, Inhuman Speed, Natural Weaponry/Claws, Pack Instincts, maybe Demonic Co-Pilot/Spiritual Co-Pilot.

That's what OW says, and it's a pretty good model.

Pretty much my thoughts too.  Nothing about the hexen-beasts is much different mechanically from a standard were-form.  They still just shape shift and gain powers based on the form.  They are supposed to be a little tougher than a normal animal of the same type.  I think the +1 bonus option of co-pilot represents it fairly well

[Taran]

I'm confused.

You don't need Powers to buy temporary Powers with debt, or at least you shouldn't. Which is good, because neither Demonic Co-Pilot nor Spiritual Co-Pilot does anything even slightly like that.

Hexenwolves have IoP, Beast Change, Echoes Of The Beast, Limitation/Human Form, Inhuman Strength, Inhuman Speed, Natural Weaponry/Claws, Pack Instincts, maybe Demonic Co-Pilot/Spiritual Co-Pilot.

That's what OW says, and it's a pretty good model.

Yeah, I'm confused too.  I never liked how Demonic Co-pilot worked because of how it only gave a +1 to skills.  I thought the struggle between the Demon and the Host should be tied more to the powers it offered (the shapeshifting, enhanced speed etc..)  I don't want to derail this thread with inane questions, but I'm going to have a player/NPC wanting to something similar to Demonic Co-pilot/HExenwolves...so naturally I came to the Rewrite looking for better options.  I can ask the question in another thread.

[Tedronai]

Yeah, I'm confused too.  I never liked how Demonic Co-pilot worked because of how it only gave a +1 to skills.  I thought the struggle between the Demon and the Host should be tied more to the powers it offered (the shapeshifting, enhanced speed etc..)  I don't want to derail this thread with inane questions, but I'm going to have a player/NPC wanting to something similar to Demonic Co-pilot/HExenwolves...so naturally I came to the Rewrite looking for better options.  I can ask the question in another thread.

My suggestion and prefered method is to simply allow access to and encourage the use of the Sponsor Debt rules, including the Temporary Powers rules funded by Debt.

[Sanctaphrax]

Yeah, I'm confused too.  I never liked how Demonic Co-pilot worked because of how it only gave a +1 to skills.  I thought the struggle between the Demon and the Host should be tied more to the powers it offered (the shapeshifting, enhanced speed etc..)  I don't want to derail this thread with inane questions, but I'm going to have a player/NPC wanting to something similar to Demonic Co-pilot/HExenwolves...so naturally I came to the Rewrite looking for better options.  I can ask the question in another thread.

What you want is quite reasonable, but it's got little to do with Demonic Co-Pilot...so the rewrite really isn't going to help.

Tedronai's suggestion is a good one. If you find it unsatisfying, you'll have to write a Power of your own. I suspect it might look a bit like Feeding Dependency.

[Taran]

What you want is quite reasonable, but it's got little to do with Demonic Co-Pilot...so the rewrite really isn't going to help.

Tedronai's suggestion is a good one. If you find it unsatisfying, you'll have to write a Power of your own. I suspect it might look a bit like Feeding Dependency.

Yeah, originally I figured it would work something like Feeding Dependancy but, as I've read in other threads, what do you do with a take-out result?  Does the player lose control of their character?  If so, for how long? etc..etc...
And how Feeding Dependancy works, I don't like the consequences of a Taken Out result:  skipping a scene etc..  I like the sponsored debt method you've presented in Spiritual Co-pilot.

My issue with only using sponsored debt only for powers is that a struggle only exists if the person has the FP's to buy off compels and it has little to do with a persons discipline or conviction.  If shape-shifting is their main Schtick, aren't they going to going to wrack up debt super quickly?

[Tedronai]

My issue with only using sponsored debt only for powers is that a struggle only exists if the person has the FP's to buy off compels and it has little to do with a persons discipline or conviction.  If shape-shifting is their main Schtick, aren't they going to going to wrack up debt super quickly?

If they access all of their powers through the temporary powers rules, yes, they will rack up debt incredibly quickly.
I recommend the player having made several long-term deals/'purchases' represented by refresh expenditure, and then 'supplementing' those powers with scenario-specific debt-fuelled upgrades.

[Sanctaphrax]

It just occurred to me: don't Dresden spirits become solid in the Nevernever?

Or am I misremembering?

I kinda hope they don't, it'd be a pain to represent. I could use the Involuntary upgrade, I suppose, but it seems un-nice to charge Refresh.

[Tedronai]

I don't have the book handy, but I'd suggest checking the Agatha Hagglethorn incident for an answer to that.

[JDK002]

It just occurred to me: don't Dresden spirits become solid in the Nevernever?

Or am I misremembering?

I kinda hope they don't, it'd be a pain to represent. I could use the Involuntary upgrade, I suppose, but it seems un-nice to charge Refresh.

IIRC It's a bit vauge.  It's mildly suggested that in the NN ghosts are solid entities.  Though you never actually see a ghost interact with a living entity in the NN unless, like in the case of Hagglethorn, something already happened that would cause it to manifest.  Everything else in the books is ghost to ghost so to speak.

[UmbraLux]

It just occurred to me: don't Dresden spirits become solid in the Nevernever?

Or am I misremembering?

Not sure they become physical / solid, but I do seem to remember that's where you're supposed to be if you want to kill them permanently...

[Sanctaphrax]

A resounding maybe!

Seems like a good excuse not to change anything.

[Sanctaphrax]

If nobody says anything more about this over the weekend, I'll probably do a list update with it.