Construct Rules of Thumbs

[Chrono]

I realize that Constructs and Summonings have been covered on multiple threads AND the basic answer is to make them NPC's. But I know there are a few of us that dream of playing a Binder-type character or a Summoner/Tinkerer of some sort, so I thought I would post my general rule of thumb for allowing players to do such things.

1. Summoning or Making Constructs is more or less the same thing. If you are making a form with ectoplasm, roll Lore as normal. If you are making a golem from natural material, use Craft.

2. Complexity determines the construct's power level. As Mark suggested, 1 point of refresh = 2 shifts. Therefore 4 refresh leads to a complexity of 8. If a PC is creating the construct, then the refresh cannot drop below 0 without some sort of stunt.

3. Complexity also determines the construct's skill level. So if the complexity is 8 for 4 refresh, for example, your construct will have 16 skill points. You can assign these points however you wish so long as it keeps with the rules of PC skill ladders. As always, skills not assigned are assumed to be 0.

4. Once the spirit/demon/AI enters the construct, it will try to defy you. Roll a Conviction VS Discipline with the construct getting +2. If you succeed, the construct gains an obediance aspect like "I Obey Hubert" for the remainder of its existance. A player could give the construct a Discipline of 0 to aid their success in this role, but that would leave them with a minion that doesn't think much for its self.

5. Constructs shut down at sunrise, either falling apart or melting to goo as is appropriate. Extending the duration adds shifts of comlexity that do not add to Refresh costs or Skill Points. Alternatively the player can simply renew the ritual with the same construct/AI combo every day. Mechanically it boils down to the same as recreating the construct except you have the obedience aspect to compel or tap.

And there you have it. So far I haven't had anyone be able to break this system, but maybe you can. Any ideas for improvements or points I forgot to mention?

[InFerrumVeritas]

I'm pretty sure the skills are too easy to break.  Not following the pyramid worries me.  Also, it shouldn't allow spellcasting.

Complexity 8, 4 refresh, 16 skill points.  That's 3 superb skills. 

Thaumaturgy with Summoning Complexity focus.  Refinement (Summoning Control, Summoning Complexity)
Superb: Conviction, Lore, Discipline 
Average: Endurance

Now it summons...

Even without spellcasting, (mix and match the Inhuman abilities as desired)
Superb: Weapons, Endurance, Athletics

[Chrono]

So include a skill cap of Good, increase complexity to raise the cap? A mortal stunt costs 1 refresh and usually is worth a +2 to skills. That is where I got the +2. Or should the skills and powers be bought seperately?

[Chrono]

Also, if someone DOES stat 3 skills at Superb, doesn't that just mean they are going to be useless and easily defeated by most other things?

I suppose if the PCs are using this as a rule of thumb, then their constructs would have to follow the same skill ladder rules that their characters do. I will update the first post with that rule to see if that fixes the break.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't like it.

Problems, in order:

1. I don't understand how one is supposed to use Craft or whatever. Isn't this Thaumaturgy?
2. Everything scales together under these rules. So if I want to make, say, a Zombie (which has 7 refresh worth of Powers) I need to give it more skills than many PCs.
3. Speaking of which, the 28 skills points of that Zombie would be best spent on a single column going up to Epic. It's a zombie, it doesn't need to be versatile. And with Epic Weapons or Fists, it would be seriously badass.
4. Your control mechanism doesn't work. An Aspect doesn't make a being do what you say unless it's invoked or compelled. Also, low Discipline doesn't stop you from thinking for yourself.

I'd really rather use the system devonapple and I came up with, or maybe even UmbraLux's system.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I don't like it.

Problems, in order:

1. I don't understand how one is supposed to use Craft or whatever. Isn't this Thaumaturgy?
2. Everything scales together under these rules. So if I want to make, say, a Zombie (which has 7 refresh worth of Powers) I need to give it more skills than many PCs.
3. Speaking of which, the 28 skills points of that Zombie would be best spent on a single column going up to Epic. It's a zombie, it doesn't need to be versatile. And with Epic Weapons or Fists, it would be seriously badass.
4. Your control mechanism doesn't work. An Aspect doesn't make a being do what you say unless it's invoked or compelled. Also, low Discipline doesn't stop you from thinking for yourself.

I'd really rather use the system devonapple and I came up with, or maybe even UmbraLux's system.

Can you link those, for consistency's sake?

[Chrono]

1. Craft is for golemns, and it does make sense if you are putting together something from natural elements and then filling it with magic using the rest of your rolls. Lore still determines the research for complexity anyway.

2. Makes sense if you are making a super zombie from scratch. I would imagine simple zombies would fall under the example in the book.

3. That is a problem, so the cap as to be at the same level as the players: superb. That way 28 points will only buy you 1 superb skill and 2 Great, or 3 great at most. Still definitely a super zombie to be sure. Again, an average zombie would probably best be made using the example in the book. Especially if you want more than one.

4. This is definitely a part of my system that needs work. I think part of it just has to be about roleplaying, and the aspect is there to encourage that and help sway things that direction. I also agree that a low discipline does not stop a person from thinking for themselves, although I don't know how it would affect a spirit of the Nevernever that has no free will. And if they get out of line, perhaps another skill check or a light 'tap' is required to keep them that way.

And second on the link. I would really like to use a system that works, especially if it has already been developed!

[Sanctaphrax]

1. I don't wonder why, I wonder how. Do I determine base complexity with Craftsmanship or something?

2. Problem is, making a super zombie by your system is only 14 complexity. Easier than making a normal zombie by the book, IIRC.

4. I'd rather just include the brainwashing in the ritual's complexity.

PS: Link.

[Chrono]

1. Craft is for the binding, since the preconstructed body acts as the container rather than the circle.

2. The book says 6-10 for summoning and 10-14 for binding.

4. To each their own. The system is used more for making construct allies rather than mindless slaves.


Your system is very thorough. I like the simplicity of mine, but I suppose it is a little easier to break than yours.

[Haru]

For a character that is focused on summoning/tinkering like this, I would probably just use a combination of human form + beast change + modular abilities (maybe Item of Power), and go from there. I think it is easier to first see where you want to go with an idea and then build up to it with the available options. Trying to build up a catch-all houserule system like this, while I always admire the effort, can quickly get things out of whack.

[Taran]

PS: Link.

I love these rules.  It has, not only compexity, but an excellent guid-line for how loyal these summoned minions will be.  So in any given combat, there is no ambiguity over how the creature will act.  It also gives both the player and GM lots of opportunities for compels - especially if you start using the aspect portion of the summoning.  In fact, I'd make that part manditory. 

[InFerrumVeritas]

I love these rules.  It has, not only compexity, but an excellent guid-line for how loyal these summoned minions will be.  So in any given combat, there is no ambiguity over how the creature will act.  It also gives both the player and GM lots of opportunities for compels - especially if you start using the aspect portion of the summoning.  In fact, I'd make that part manditory.

I hadn't read those before.  Nicely done.

[Silverblaze]

1. Craft is for the binding, since the preconstructed body acts as the container rather than the circle.

2. The book says 6-10 for summoning and 10-14 for binding.

4. To each their own. The system is used more for making construct allies rather than mindless slaves.


Your system is very thorough. I like the simplicity of mine, but I suppose it is a little easier to break than yours.

I hate to gang up.

I'm going to say that from a game balance perspective: the ability to break it is a serious flaw.

Also, if someone DOES stat 3 skills at Superb, doesn't that just mean they are going to be useless and easily defeated by most other things?

I see two ways to handle that.

1) superb: presence, conviction, endurance
average: fists

NPC's won't know how crappy they are in combat and they can soak up lots of damage for the PC's

2) Superb: Fists, Endurance, Athletics
Average: Alertness

Slow on initiative - but pretty rugged and effective otherwise.  going to hazard if used as cannon fodder - many foes will not think to social it to death.  In the mean time the cannon fodder beats some serious ass.  Then even if they do fall fast...the PC's added targets to their side of the field and made combat that much safer for themselves.

I have used the linked rules for summoning/binding/constructs etc.  They work elegantly and efficiently.  They aren't truly balanced either...but far closer.

Thaumaturgy itself isn't horribly balanced anyhow, but one should not compound the problem.

[Chrono]

Ah well. It was a nice system in theory, but if it doesn't work then it doesn't work. I'd much rather find out it is broken on this forum than in the middle of a game, which is why I posted it here. Bad enough one of my players discovered the Orbius spell.

Still not a big fan of a complicated system, but I will use the linked system until I figure out a way to fix the break.

[Sanctaphrax]

@Chrono: Don't give up! The problems here aren't all that huge. You're just a bit too generous with skills and a bit vague with the binding process.

For the skills, I suggest (complexity) skill points with a cap of (2 + 1 for every ten skill points). Maybe require a pyramid, maybe not.

For the binding, I suggest ditching the defense roll and the aspect bit. Just say something like "Forcing a summon to obey mindlessly requires a roll against a quarter of the summoning complexity. Beating the difficulty by 2 gets you a bit of independent thought, beating it by four gets an intelligent and proactive helper."

@Silverblaze: Good to hear that people are getting use out of the system. Any suggestions on how to improve it?

@Taran, InFerrumVeritas: Thanks.

I'm pretty fond of the aspect rules too, and I've been thinking that they might work for other types of ritual. For stuff like "your divination alerts Black Mage McEvilwizardington to your existence" and "turning into a bear makes you think in a bear-like way".