Why is the true love catch +0?

[Lamech]

What's up with true love on the Wampire template being +0. That would imply that only a couple people have twue wuv, and that next to no one knows about the catch? I would have thought that at the very least Harry explained the Catch to Paranet. At the very least a few people would be able to find it in obscure texts of lore such as the Harry Dresden Role Playing Game, or similar tomes.

[Tedronai]

The appropriate cost of the True Emotion Catches is something of a hotly debated topic on these boards.



A few points that might support it's +0 value:

True Emotion is difficult to maintain for significant durations (the largest contributor to the duration of Harry's protection by way of True Love was his horrible facility with women preventing him from having an opportunity to 'get back on the horse'), so even if a substantial portion of humanity experiences it at some point in their lives, only a small portion would have experienced it recently enough to be protected by it

True Emotion (and particularly non-violent emotion) is incredibly difficult to weaponize (making this Catch more useful as a source of Compels than as a way of bypassing any Toughness powers, and Compels are cost-neutral)

True Emotion is even more incredibly difficult to verify (without the involvement of an entity for whom it serves as a Catch) than it is to weaponize, so not only do you have to discover that your target is vulnerable to True Love, but you also have to discover which of those decades-old bands of gold alloy (or whatever) actually serves as a symbol of True Love

[InFerrumVeritas]

In the context of the universe, only Bob and the White Court seemed to know the catch or really how the Whampires worked.  That is, it requires personally knowing a WCV.  Remember, in the novels, Harry is very close with the WCVs and his intimate level of knowledge is rather rare amongst other wizards.  I don't think it's something you can just go look up.  I know this book is technically cannon, but I don't treat it as such in my game.  Too meta.

[Lamech]

The appropriate cost of the True Emotion Catches is something of a hotly debated topic on these boards.



A few points that might support it's +0 value:

True Emotion is difficult to maintain for significant durations (the largest contributor to the duration of Harry's protection by way of True Love was his horrible facility with women preventing him from having an opportunity to 'get back on the horse'), so even if a substantial portion of humanity experiences it at some point in their lives, only a small portion would have experienced it recently enough to be protected by it

True Emotion (and particularly non-violent emotion) is incredibly difficult to weaponize (making this Catch more useful as a source of Compels than as a way of bypassing any Toughness powers, and Compels are cost-neutral)

True Emotion is even more incredibly difficult to verify (without the involvement of an entity for whom it serves as a Catch) than it is to weaponize, so not only do you have to discover that your target is vulnerable to True Love, but you also have to discover which of those decades-old bands of gold alloy (or whatever) actually serves as a symbol of True Love

It completely and totally makes sense that True Love is one of those things that only a few people have access too. Thomas and Justine, and that one wedding ring that Laura burned herself on are the only examples, so three of them, just as rare as Swords of the Cross. But that doesn't cover the notability portion of it. I would be floored if Harry hadn't informed Paranet, and even more surprised if it wasn't learnable through dedicated and careful research. So it should qualify for a +1 or +2.

In the context of the universe, only Bob and the White Court seemed to know the catch or really how the Whampires worked.  That is, it requires personally knowing a WCV.  Remember, in the novels, Harry is very close with the WCVs and his intimate level of knowledge is rather rare amongst other wizards.  I don't think it's something you can just go look up.  I know this book is technically cannon, but I don't treat it as such in my game.  Too meta.

I think one of the Red Court new about it. (Short story.) And Harry has played a big role in Paranet so he should have distributed it to Paranet.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I'm not sure how widely spread that Paranet information is.  We haven't see a huge number of examples on it.

[Tedronai]

But that doesn't cover the notability portion of it. I would be floored if Harry hadn't informed Paranet, and even more surprised if it wasn't learnable through dedicated and careful research. So it should qualify for a +1 or +2.I think one of the Red Court new about it. (Short story.) And Harry has played a big role in Paranet so he should have distributed it to Paranet.

I don't think it's ever established that Harry provided any such information to the Paranet.
If such is true in your game, it might affect the appropriate costing of this Catch.
I say 'might' because of the last point in my prior post:

For successful (non-accidental) implementation of this Catch, not only will you have to work to identify the nature of the weakness in theoretical terms, but in practical ones as well (and separately).
It won't do you much good if you know that WCVs of House Raith are vulnerable to True Love if you can't figure out how to get your hands on a sympol of that Truth (or whether you actually have gotten your hands on one, for that matter)

[Lamech]

For successful (non-accidental) implementation of this Catch, not only will you have to work to identify the nature of the weakness in theoretical terms, but in practical ones as well (and separately).
It won't do you much good if you know that WCVs of House Raith are vulnerable to True Love if you can't figure out how to get your hands on a sympol of that Truth (or whether you actually have gotten your hands on one, for that matter)

Ohh... this makes a lot of sense now. If the only test is zapping a WC vampire, then just because you in theory know that love zaps them doesn't have any practical value. 'K that makes sense then.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

I'd expect someone with an occultist (vampires) stunt to know it, though.

[Tedronai]

I'd expect someone with an occultist (vampires) stunt to know it, though.

If their 'deeper specialty' happened to be White Court Vampires, sure, I'd definitely expect them to know that the House of Raith is vulnerable to True Love, as well as the vulnerabilities of most of the other meaningful Houses, likely even beyond the top three that we see in the novels.

For someone specializing in Vampires: Black Court, though, I would not expect that knowledge.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

If their 'deeper specialty' happened to be White Court Vampires, sure, I'd definitely expect them to know that the House of Raith is vulnerable to True Love, as well as the vulnerabilities of most of the other meaningful Houses, likely even beyond the top three that we see in the novels.

For someone specializing in Vampires: Black Court, though, I would not expect that knowledge.

I'd allow the knowledge of Raith being susceptible to true love, since Occultists are supposed to know stuff that doesn't pertain to their specialty as well. And a Lore roll to uncover that knowledge would, of course, be allowable.

[Tedronai]

Allow, sure.  But not expect.
I'd allow it without the stunt, though.
And in any case, I'd require a roll, if not several (or a FP-fueled Declaration with significant justification).

[InFerrumVeritas]

Something else to consider:

When we see it in the novels, the only action that I could consider an attack is Justine on Thomas' cousin.  Everything else is a defensive action, likely a compel.  So that stress track is bypassed once that I can remember in the 10 novels that Thomas is in.  Maybe a bit more, but not much.  It really just prevents people from being fed upon.

My point is, the catch is almost never going to bypass the stress track or recovery.  It may be compel worthy very often, but not bypassing the powers it is supposed to give a rebate to. 

[ways and means]

By the raw rules of how catches are valued the white court vampire catch is defiantly not a 0 catch, as at the very least the WCV know their own catch and as there are probably over a 100 of them that already counts as a +1 for knowledge (a select few know the secret), and as we have seen in the novels stuff like wedding rings and symbols of affection count so even if we assume true love is incredibly rare there are bound to be dozens of such symbols floating about (wedding rings, engagement rings, children who were born of true love etc). 

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

By the raw rules of how catches are valued the white court vampire catch is defiantly not a 0 catch, as at the very least the WCV know their own catch and as there are probably over a 100 of them that already counts as a +1 for knowledge (a select few know the secret), and as we have seen in the novels stuff like wedding rings and symbols of affection count so even if we assume true love is incredibly rare there are bound to be dozens of such symbols floating about (wedding rings, engagement rings, children who were born of true love etc).

I'd make it a +1, personally. Children born of True Love probably wouldn't count.

[Tedronai]

By the raw rules of how catches are valued the white court vampire catch is defiantly not a 0 catch

By your interpretation of RAW and understanding of their Catch, you mean.

This is obviously a contested claim.

and as we have seen in the novels stuff like wedding rings and symbols of affection count so even if we assume true love is incredibly rare there are bound to be dozens of such symbols floating about (wedding rings, engagement rings, children who were born of true love etc).

No, as we have seen in the novels (and pointed out by IFV), some symbols of affection (of which wedding rings are a relatively common example) will gain the resonance of the (incredibly rare) True Love with which they were given, suffice to provide justification for Compels against a Raith's High Concept.





Really, though, if someone wants to further explore this contentious issue, I believe there are at least a few threads in this forum's history where the arguments can be seen in all their torrid detail.
We're not going to miraculously come to a consencus on this thread after failing to do so on those threads that came before.  It's just not going to happen.  If any newer members wish to see the arguments, they can do so without us all having to get riled up again in a new incarnation of this eternal battle.