"Physical Immunity" with a Catch of "Half all damage"

[Timboman]

Ok, here's what I'm trying to do.
I'm currently running a Submerged level game in NYC that is pitting my players up against mobsters that have gotten themselves a whole crap-ton of Items of Power.
There is a little more to it than that, but just in case my players happen to check the forums and read this, I'm keeping it as vague as I can.
With all the power at their disposal they have made short work out of several of the larger threats that I've thrown at them so far (I have a PC's that can routinely get 10+ on a Fists roll) and I'm looking to try and level the playing field a bit to give them a real challenge, thus we come to the purpose of my topic:

I want to make a NPC/Boss character that doesn't just have straight up Physical Immunity (Which in practice just turns into a game of "Hit it with everything until we find what damages it") but instead halves all the stress (rounded up) that would normally be dealt to him by ANY source of damage.

Should I simply use Physical Immunity for this with that as the catch? Does it even make sense if technically he's not really Immune to anything (just more resilient) and if so what would the bonus for this catch be exactly? Would it simply make more sense to just say screw it and make up my own custom power?

What do you all think?

-Timboman

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

That seems reasonable, although if your PCs can do that much damage, it would make sense to give the boss some extra physical stress boxes as well.

Also, 10+ Fists routinely? HOW?

[Locnil]

A [-4] catch would be mathematically accurate, since it's half Physical Immunity. Though I would like to know what the forum thinks it should cost. And I see no reason why a half all damage power would be bad - if anything, it's a great power to tack on to end bosses, since even with consequences they tend to be too fragile if you want them to fight solo.

All of this, of course, is my opinion. I am fairly new to the game myself.

Also, for the 10+ Fists rolls, I'm guessing high skill cap + large amount of stunts + large amount of True Aim and Demonic Copilot-style powers. Or maybe something like Sponsored Fists, with debt paid off by excessive self-compelling.

...Assuming he does it himself. If combat boils down to "give that guy all the tags you can", then 10+ should be par for the course.

[Silverblaze]

That seems reasonable, although if your PCs can do that much damage, it would make sense to give the boss some extra physical stress boxes as well.

Also, 10+ Fists routinely? HOW?

I assume a high skill gets most of the way there. +6 to + 8.  It could be a high end game.

Routinely could simply mean more often than not the player rolls plusses also.

[InFerrumVeritas]

10+ fists shouldn't be common.  Sure, you can have Superb Fists at submerged.  But boosting this?  A stunt could boost it by 1, but stunts don't stack (and also shouldn't stack with powers, usually).  So you're looking at 6 shifts normally.  If you're tagging a bunch of aspects and spending FP, then that's a limited resource. 

So I have to ask as well, how are they doing this "routinely"?  If not by stacking maneuvers/declarations/fate points/and teamwork (in which case, multiple enemies should tear them apart as they're wasting all of their resources on a single attack each exchange).

If they have a high skill cap +6 to +8, then it's not really a "Submerged" game.  And if your players have skills that high, then their opponents should probably be around there too (Spending lots of refresh but having low skills is worse than spending very little refresh but having very high skills, usually).

[Timboman]

I should say that when it comes to my +10 Fists statement I'm talking more about potential damage then the actual roll to hit, but I do have a couple players with +5 Superb in Fists and if you combine that with a decent roll and a couple invoked aspects you can easily surpass +10 to hit. When you consider things like getting Weapon:2 Fists from Inhuman strength, you can see how a range of 9-11 "damage" can (and does) happen frequently and though a chunk of it is mitigated by an opposed roll to dodge (or something else applicable) it can still translate into 5+ stress on one of my NPC's, which if they don't have Inhuman Toughness easily leads to some pretty brutal consequences even in the first couple rounds of a fight.

-Timboman

Edit: My players are rather coordinated and DO frequently set up one person with a lot of maneuvers for huge power attacks, but since they all like to role-play their characters while playing they do have a fairly constant flow of fate points to use when that strategy isn't viable.

[Silverblaze]

Physical Immunity that grants protection in the form of halved damage?

Sounds fine to me. 

Sounds best if left as one of the only defense powers the foe has.

12 damage = 6 damage.

There lies one problem with it.  (Not so much a problem; lemme rephrase...) 

The resilence granted by this could in theory ( in some games  ) also work in conjunction with toughnesses. 

- X Half damage (physical Immunity)
-6 Mythic Toughness (+0 Catch)

PC hits foe for - 12 shifts after defense roll.  (A mighty strike indeed)

Shifts of damage taken are in fact.  6 (half damage) -3 for armor = 3 stress.

I kind of see this as being very tough depending upon the strength of the PCs.   In some games this may be required.  I'm just puting some numbers to it, so the power of adding the two together can be seen.

Adding Mythic Speed would add three to the defense roll making a 12 stress attack become a 9 stress attack (by decreasing accuracy damage by 3 assuming the attack hit the foe at all at that rate...). 

9 becomes:

5 (rounding up ) - 3 for armor = 2 stress.
4 (rounding down) - 3 for armor = 1 stress.

I think it makes people with things (powers or items) that satisfy all catches all the more bad ass in this situation.  (If the goal is to make them shine for a fight; this is good. If the goal is to make a tough fight.  The other PC's may feel impotent and left to only manuever.  Depending on your group this could get boring if over used in the game to add challenge.  Please note: I see nothing wrong with PC's having to maneuver to help one PC...it just isn't something I enjoy as a player if that is the only way I can meaningfully contribute [ more than 50% of the time ..... {caveat being if I play a socialite who can really only contribute in combat that way}])


All my rambling aside.  I like the idea.  I just think it should be used sparingly.

[Locnil]

Yep, only for end-game bosses, so that you don't get a Beowulf situton and have to pull a mother out of your ass.

A good name for this power would be Plot Armour.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Don't forget that without toughness NPCs can still wear Armor and make declarations/invoke aspects too.  If your players have a lot a fate points (if too many are being given or they hoard them, or just have a lot), you can always keep a pool of fate points for your NPCs.  There's no reason why they wouldn't have any.

Half all damage is probably about as good as "Double Stress Boxes" which Supernatural Toughness gives you.  So I'd probably cost it as +4.  It's also boosting consequences a bit, so maybe only +3.  I do want to second the concern on how this will interact with other abilities.

[Timboman]

A more specific example would be a PC in my game who has +5 Superb Fists and was being insanely lucky all night and didn't roll anything less than a +2. This left him with a +7 just on his own. Combined with a second PC who is Pure Mortal that has fully embraced the support roll and does nothing else in combat but do maneuvers to benefit the other players he got nothing lower than a +9 to hit all night and since he had Inhuman Strength, all his Fist based attacks where Weapon:2.

So not counting the target's evasion rolls he made nothing but effectively 11 stress hits all night.

-Timboman

[Silverblaze]

Been thinking...

This may be an inelegant, yet effective way of limiting things like....

Soulfire
ACAEBG
Sacred guardian


If you classify it as an all new power: it has no catch.  It is not toughness...  It is simply a quality that halves all damage.

I am biased though.  I play a character with no inhuman + powers and rely on ACAEBG to hurt stuff.  I don't like that idea as a player one bit.  It could still be effective to mitigate the power of that nastiness.

The obvious arguement here is that ACAEBG is like a friggin' lightsaber and works on mundane armor too...So why doesn't it just slice on through "like a hot knife through  butter"?

I don't have an answer other than this:  It is a house ruled power anyway.  If you as a group are okay with it...screw the rules - play the game.

[Tedronai]

Physical Immunity that grants protection in the form of halved damage?

Sounds fine to me. 

Sounds best if left as one of the only defense powers the foe has.

12 damage = 6 damage.

There lies one problem with it.  (Not so much a problem; lemme rephrase...) 

The resilence granted by this could in theory ( in some games  ) also work in conjunction with toughnesses. 

- X Half damage (physical Immunity)
-6 Mythic Toughness (+0 Catch)

PC hits foe for - 12 shifts after defense roll.  (A mighty strike indeed)

Shifts of damage taken are in fact.  6 (half damage) -3 for armor = 3 stress.

I kind of see this as being very tough depending upon the strength of the PCs.   In some games this may be required.  I'm just puting some numbers to it, so the power of adding the two together can be seen.

Adding Mythic Speed would add three to the defense roll making a 12 stress attack become a 9 stress attack (by decreasing accuracy damage by 3 assuming the attack hit the foe at all at that rate...). 

9 becomes:

5 (rounding up ) - 3 for armor = 2 stress.
4 (rounding down) - 3 for armor = 1 stress.

The majority of the concern expressed, here, can be addressed, I believe, by specifying that this proposed power always applies LAST, after all other modifiers.
You could even make a lesser version that applies after consequences.

[Silverblaze]

12 damage

- 3 for armor

-3 for speed.

6 stress

1/2 = 3.

Still nasty but seems to help yeah.

Whatever the case.  Likely less nasty at lower levels, like everythign else.  I just think cautious use is likely a good idea.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'm not opposed to the idea, but I don't think you should call it Physical Immunity. Because it doesn't actually make you physically immune.

Call it Damage Mitigation or something.

The cost depends on whether it applies before or after armour. But either way, it should be pretty darn pricey. I'd peg it at -5 or -8, but I'm just pulling numbers out of the air here.

Either way, it's much more powerful when combined with Toughness. Maybe you could give it a surcharge when combined, then knock down the price.