Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup) - Now with Demonhost Template!

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

Reading over the Feeding Dependency rules, I feel ther's some potential there, but exactly what one would do to clear out the stress track is a conundrum, and to be extremely powerful when drawing on the Demon (as I imagine the Demonhost being), you'd end up taking /massive/ hunger attacks. That could be cool, but I'd prefer the Host to have a little more control.

I also want to point out that this isn't just a thug-demon; the kind of Demons that this template is designed for are /very/ intelligent - closer to a Fallen than the ones Kravos/Sells use in the cleverness stakes. Just randomly killing people doesn't really fit that. I definitely think they should be gleefully violent, but not mindlessly so.

I like using Modular Abilities alongside a Debt System, but tying the two together is a problem.

[Centarion]

I think i see what you are getting at. I was having the same thought about modular abilities+debt when i was trying to come up with the feeding dependance type solution.

What I was trying to get at was a combination of feeding dependance (re-flavored as loosing control to a demon rather than your need for food) and modular abilities. This would likely be a power that either costs [-0] or grants a rebate ([+X]) and then requires you spend refresh on available powers. If you didnt want a limit on the amount of powers you could have (aka dont want a set amount of refresh tied to this) you would basically just end up using temporary powers/debt as discussed above.

I also kept thinking about ways to add debt to this type of combination (ie. spend fate points/take debt in order to by off hunger stress or the like), but I kept thinking that if you are buying off stress using fate points/debt you are basically just using the temporary powers rules anyway (and being charged twice, since you spent refresh for access to the powers, and fate points to not get taken over when you use them).

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

I'd like to know the lines along which you'd reflavour the Feeding Dependency. Since you can't get rid of the Stress by any means other than skipping scenes, it seems a mite unfair. I also don't like the idea of losing powers - if anything, losing control to the Demon would make you /more/ powerful - just not in control.

Perhaps one could use the Sponsor option without the abilities and for Magic, then allow the Host to take Temporary powers above their modular ability allowance within the guidelines we set out previously?  This would represent a safe benchmark that the Host can control, with the GM throwing in the occasional compel on the demon aspect to represent the Demon's nature. Then, for the occasional 'I need more power right NOW!' situation, one could use the Temporary Abilities option for extra stuff, then suffer compels later.

Thinking on it, I like this option the most. A decent amount of Compels on the Demon aspect, Modular Abilities, with the ability to go above that threshold for a price.

I think I've got this figured out.

[Centarion]

That was the problem I was running into. My original thought was that you would get rid of stress/consequences by giving over to the demon, repaying him for the powers by letting him exercise his will (in game terms taking debt compels against the hunger), but as I mentioned that was basically paying twice.

I like the concept of having modular abilities for a baseline and then being able to take more/upgraded powers temporarily via sponsor debt.

Such a character would spend around 6 refresh on modular abilities (this is just how I am thinking of it), thus being able to have full casting (via hellfire or some other sponsored magic) or one part of casting and a inhuman ability (like channeling: hellfire and inhuman strength), or be able to take on several inhuman powers/creature features. I would add the caveat (via the reasonableness test on any powers) that the only casting you can take would be some sponsored magic from the demon and that you specify a catch for all toughness and recovery powers ahead of time (like holy objects and true faith).

Anyway it is a really cool concept and I would love to see where it goes.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

Agree with all your points there. Just working on a custom template now.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

Template:


Demonhost

Description: For whatever reason, this character has been posessed by a true Demon, a powerful, intelligent spirit of the Nevernever with its own conciousness and agenda. Those Demonhosts who are not reduced to gibbering wrecks or mere flesh husks for their Demons are incredibly dangerous idividuals. Unlike the Knights of the Blackened Denarius, Demonhosts often do not choose their circumstance, and their relationship with their Demon is often a poisonous one, with the Demon offering power in exchange for portions the Host's soul and Free Will.

Musts: A Demonhost must take a High Concept or Trouble Aspect that reflects his state as a Demonhost, e.g. Demon-posessed FBI Agent (as a High Concept) or Posessed by T'zarkan, Devourer of Souls (as a Trouble).

Additionaly, the Following Supernatural Powers must be taken:

• Marked By Power [-1]
• Demonic Constitution [-0]
• Demonic Assistance [-0]
• Human Guise [-0]

Options:

Modular Abilities [- Varies] Hosts who have shared their body with a Demon for a while often have a 'baseline' of Demonic power which they can call on without losing portions of their soul to the Demon. To reflect this, Modular Abilities (YS177) may be taken from Creature Features, Minor Abilities, Speed, Strength, Toughness, subject to GM and Table approval. In addition, The Sight may be taken as part of these. Other Powers may be negotiated with the GM, but a Demonhost may never externalise their powers in an Item of Power, or take powers that stem from True Faith (for obvious reasons).

Sponsored Magic: [- Varies]Demonhosts who draw on their Demonic roomie for magical power may take Sponsored Magic in addition to their Modular Abilities. Channeling is the most common form of Sponsored Magic available to a Demonhost - the control and restraint necessary for Ritual don't mesh well with the inherantly destructive forces the Demons grant access to. That said, certain forms of Ritual could be granted, with GM and Table approval and a good justification. The element granted can take any form, provided it falls within the Demon's Milieu - Hellfie is a good catch-all, but a Demon with an acidic or decaying bent could grant entropy Channeling, for example. Certain tables might allow this to be used as part of Modular Abilities, or they might feel that the Demon would require a greater sacrifice of the Host's Soul to grant Magic, leaving it as a seperate ability.

Custom Powers:

Demonic Assistance allows the Demonhost to incur Sponsor Debt for even more power. The Demonhost may take Powers above the restrictions of Refresh and Modular Abilities under the Temporary Powers rules (YS98), except the abilites incur Sponsor Debt to the Demon rather than cost Fate Points. These powers must come from hte same categories as are allowed by Modular Powers. If the Demonhost takes an upgrade to a power they already have under the Temporary Powers umbrella, they merely incur the difference between the two powers in Debt. For example, buying Supernatural Speed as a Temporary Power only costs 2 Points of Debt, rather than 4, if the Demonhost already has Inhuman Speed under their Modular Abilities (obviously, if you get rid of the first ability while under the effect of Temporary Powers, they must incur enough debt to cover the full cost of the Temporary Power or lose it). The Demonhost may also invoke an aspect in exchange for a point of sponsor debt, as per the Sponsored Magic rules.

Demonic Constitution is functionally the Same as Wizard's Constitution (YS170) With the Catch of Holy Items and True Faith. This is in effect permanently, and represents the additional resilience sharing a body with a powerful Demon grants. It is replaced by any Recovery powers taken under Modular Abilities or Demonic Assistance, but it is 'always on' - if there is no Recovery power active, the Demonhost is still under this effect.

Important Skills: Any/None

Minimum Refresh Cost: -4, more depending on the number of Form Points allowed under Modular Abilities. (-1 Marked By Power, -1 Minimum Modular Abilities, -2 Modular Abilities surcharge).


I think that works.

If a GM feels the Host isn't beholden enough to the Demon they could Compel them more the more they use their Modular Abilities. Another option one could this template grants (but not a stat/power one) is the ability to Declare that the Demon knows something about a subject at hand, or could grant an ability, like a Denarian Angel. I didn't put that in htere, as I feel the template is pretty much finished, but if one wanted to adapt this for a Denarian, or someone with a Shadow in their head, you could add an option to provide bonuses to Skills (although I suppose one can already do this with a bit of wrangling under a Demonic Assistance declaration on the 'Demon' aspect.

[Tedronai]

I would recommend relegating Modular Powers to the 'Options' section of that template, rather than 'Musts'.
Modular Powers represent what the host can use with (relative) safety from the risk of losing control.
A character just establishing their relationship with a demon might not have any such safety margin.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

Changed.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I'd also probably list Sponsored Magic as an option.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

Technically, it's already covered under Modular Abilities, and I'd be a little leery of allowing Ritual - The Demon is providing raw power, not finesse. Channeling is a better fit, and it's already there. That said, I'll add it as an option.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Technically, it's already covered under Modular Abilities, and I'd be a little leery of allowing Ritual - The Demon is providing raw power, not finesse. Channeling is a better fit, and it's already there. That said, I'll add it as an option.

I really don't think allowing Magic to be a modular ability is a good idea.  Spellcasting is one of the most options in the game.  However, it has two major limitations.  The first is that it requires significant character investment.  It costs a lot of refresh, and requires at least two skills Good or higher to be effective.   The other major limitation is that once the character is out of mental stress, they've lost a great deal of their abilities.

Allowing Modular Abilities/Temporary Powers to grant spellcasting means that you've effectively removed 1 1/2 of the limitations on spellcasting (it still requires a skill investment).  This makes it an incredibly good option or spellcasters.  They get other abilities when their spellcasting runs out, some of which can boost the second/third tier skills thus mitigating the skill investment a bit anyway.

Finally, every spellcasting power, including Sponsored Magic, grants focus or enchanted items.  How wold those work with this power?  And what if I lose the power, then gain it again?  Do I get more enchanted items?  That type of looping opens up a whole new can of worms.

I think if a character wants to cast spells, it should be a separate investment.  Sponsored Magic, Channeling, etc.  Either way, it should be a permanent part of the character.  You can flavor it as coming from the demon, but swapping it for other powers is simply too good.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

I really don't think allowing Magic to be a modular ability is a good idea.  Spellcasting is one of the most options in the game.  However, it has two major limitations.  The first is that it requires significant character investment.  It costs a lot of refresh, and requires at least two skills Good or higher to be effective.   The other major limitation is that once the character is out of mental stress, they've lost a great deal of their abilities.

Allowing Modular Abilities/Temporary Powers to grant spellcasting means that you've effectively removed 1 1/2 of the limitations on spellcasting (it still requires a skill investment).  This makes it an incredibly good option or spellcasters.  They get other abilities when their spellcasting runs out, some of which can boost the second/third tier skills thus mitigating the skill investment a bit anyway.

Finally, every spellcasting power, including Sponsored Magic, grants focus or enchanted items.  How wold those work with this power?  And what if I lose the power, then gain it again?  Do I get more enchanted items?  That type of looping opens up a whole new can of worms.

I think if a character wants to cast spells, it should be a separate investment.  Sponsored Magic, Channeling, etc.  Either way, it should be a permanent part of the character.  You can flavor it as coming from the demon, but swapping it for other powers is simply too good.

Changed. I'd also flavour it as coming from the Demon, and, personally, as it does come directly from the demon, I wouldn't allow any foci/enchanteds (I like the idea of it being quite uncontrolled). I guess a Host with a lot of Form Points and Magic would be quite high-refresh-cost, which makes sense to me.

[Centarion]

I have to disagree with you (InFerrumVeritas) on this one. You are already paying 2 refresh in order to be able to swap around abilities. That compensates for a large part of the benefit you gain from being able to switch over to physical powers when you fill up your mental stress. You already have put a significant character investment into spell casting, if you want your casting to be effective you need to dedicate at least 2 apex skills to it, and you are effectively paying 2 refresh for the privilege of dropping your casting when you run out of stress. Also, I would require at least one exchange to shuffle around powers (normally modular abilities works with true shape shifting, and that normally takes an exchange) so you are taking a disadvantage if you try to drop your casting (in my experience most combats end fast enough that sitting out a round is fairly major).

I think you are also underestimating the cost of taking all that mental stress. If there does end up being a problem where the character repeatedly blows through their casting and then fights the rest of the prolonged fights (one of the ways to tone down casters) using physical powers (thus negating this disadvantage) the GM should introduce some enemies that attack the mental stress track (like red court vamps using narcotic saliva or white court with incite emotion, or something else entirely). Further, the GM may just compel the character with the filled in mental stress track to get into a fight with the demon for control right after a fight.

Also you seem to think that being able to swap to other abilities will help mitigate the skill investment, that is false in many cases. In fact, you will often be at a disadvantage because you built your character to cast (or fight) and now you are forced to do the other. Adding inhuman strength does not compensate for a lack of fists or weapons skill, it makes it worse (as it is harder for you to connect and make use of that refresh). It is true that speed can help you compensate for low defenses, but often times, adding a bonus to a skill you have at 1 or 2 is way less potent than adding a bonus to a skill already at 5 (Would you take cloak of shadows on a 1 stealth character? Would it be very good? Most guards would likely still see you. Compare to stacking the bonus onto an already high skill, now even with fate points or high alertness guard monsters you can likely get past).

There is the interesting question of enchanted items. Personally I would disallow enchanted items for such a character, the demon is not turning you into an alchemist or enchanter, he is lending you access to magic power. I would however allow the character to spend his slots on focus items. There is no reason he cant craft a focus item, then when he looses the powers just carry around a big stick or sword with runes on it until he picks the power back up. If you want to make the power uncontrolled that is a choice you make as a player (or enforce as a GM) it probably shouldn't be a condition of the rules. To do this just make a character with higher conviction than discipline and don't craft heavy control foci, make power foci instead.

There is no reason the character couldn't just buy his magic separately from the modular/temporary abilities if he wanted to have it always, but I see no reason to force that choice.

[Taran]

I was going to recommend a hunger track, but you'd already made a custom power so I'd decided to leave it.  But since you brought it up, this is how I'd deal with it.

Write up your list of powers (and it could be a long list depending on the host demon and the refresh of the character), and tie it to feeding dependancy.

Before the character uses a power, let them choose whether they take a point of sponsored debt.
"sure you can have this power, but you owe me later"

If they choose this, they don't have to roll against their hunger.

If they don't choose the sponsor debt, they use whatever powers they like, and roll against hunger as normal.

They can take consequences(probably mental) that represent favours to the demon if they fail - anything you can compel that would represent the demon punishing, or taking back for using it.

If they choose to take hunger stress, it can be represented two ways:

Your spirit cutting itself off to protect itself
The Demon cutting you off for trying to assert control over it.

When you get taken out by hunger stress, that could be your body(soul) going through withdrawl, or having to recouperate.  Or maybe it can be time that the demon has full control of the host - a free chance to forward its own goals.

You may be able to use sponsored debt to buy off stress as well.

Just a thought.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

I was going to recommend a hunger track, but you'd already made a custom power so I'd decided to leave it.  But since you brought it up, this is how I'd deal with it.

Write up your list of powers (and it could be a long list depending on the host demon and the refresh of the character), and tie it to feeding dependancy.

Before the character uses a power, let them choose whether they take a point of sponsored debt.
"sure you can have this power, but you owe me later"

If they choose this, they don't have to roll against their hunger.

If they don't choose the sponsor debt, they use whatever powers they like, and roll against hunger as normal.

They can take consequences(probably mental) that represent favours to the demon if they fail - anything you can compel that would represent the demon punishing, or taking back for using it.

If they choose to take hunger stress, it can be represented two ways:

Your spirit cutting itself off to protect itself
The Demon cutting you off for trying to assert control over it.

When you get taken out by hunger stress, that could be your body(soul) going through withdrawl, or having to recouperate.  Or maybe it can be time that the demon has full control of the host - a free chance to forward its own goals.

You may be able to use sponsored debt to buy off stress as well.

Just a thought.

The problem with that is one Centarion brought up earlier - you're basically taking Feeding Dependencey and Sponsor Debt. The system I came up with isn't a hard enforcement for the Demonhost's nature, like a Feeding Dependency would be - it's a soft, GM-driven one. It'd be easy to compel the Host the more he uses his powers, and the Temporary Powers thing works well, as in most encounters, you won't really need it, if you have decent skills. When you do need it, you can have that extra power - but at a steep price.

I have to disagree with you (InFerrumVeritas) on this one. You are already paying 2 refresh in order to be able to swap around abilities. That compensates for a large part of the benefit you gain from being able to switch over to physical powers when you fill up your mental stress. You already have put a significant character investment into spell casting, if you want your casting to be effective you need to dedicate at least 2 apex skills to it, and you are effectively paying 2 refresh for the privilege of dropping your casting when you run out of stress. Also, I would require at least one exchange to shuffle around powers (normally modular abilities works with true shape shifting, and that normally takes an exchange) so you are taking a disadvantage if you try to drop your casting (in my experience most combats end fast enough that sitting out a round is fairly major).

I think you are also underestimating the cost of taking all that mental stress. If there does end up being a problem where the character repeatedly blows through their casting and then fights the rest of the prolonged fights (one of the ways to tone down casters) using physical powers (thus negating this disadvantage) the GM should introduce some enemies that attack the mental stress track (like red court vamps using narcotic saliva or white court with incite emotion, or something else entirely). Further, the GM may just compel the character with the filled in mental stress track to get into a fight with the demon for control right after a fight.

Also you seem to think that being able to swap to other abilities will help mitigate the skill investment, that is false in many cases. In fact, you will often be at a disadvantage because you built your character to cast (or fight) and now you are forced to do the other. Adding inhuman strength does not compensate for a lack of fists or weapons skill, it makes it worse (as it is harder for you to connect and make use of that refresh). It is true that speed can help you compensate for low defenses, but often times, adding a bonus to a skill you have at 1 or 2 is way less potent than adding a bonus to a skill already at 5 (Would you take cloak of shadows on a 1 stealth character? Would it be very good? Most guards would likely still see you. Compare to stacking the bonus onto an already high skill, now even with fate points or high alertness guard monsters you can likely get past).

There is the interesting question of enchanted items. Personally I would disallow enchanted items for such a character, the demon is not turning you into an alchemist or enchanter, he is lending you access to magic power. I would however allow the character to spend his slots on focus items. There is no reason he cant craft a focus item, then when he looses the powers just carry around a big stick or sword with runes on it until he picks the power back up. If you want to make the power uncontrolled that is a choice you make as a player (or enforce as a GM) it probably shouldn't be a condition of the rules. To do this just make a character with higher conviction than discipline and don't craft heavy control foci, make power foci instead.

There is no reason the character couldn't just buy his magic separately from the modular/temporary abilities if he wanted to have it always, but I see no reason to force that choice.

At the moment, I'll leave it as-is, since I feel the Demon might go 'Spellcasting? You want MAGIC now? Well, I can give you that, but it'll cost you...', which justifies the extra Refresh. I'll add in that some tables might allow the Host to take this under Modular Abilities/Temporary Powers (I'd definitely allow it under the latter - crazy, fast power is what that part is FOR).

I agree on enchanteds. Not so sure on Foci.