POV Advice

[belial.1980]

Hey there all,

So I was helping to seek some advice regarding POV. When writing from 3rd person limited, I've found that I like to include minor characters' POVs from time to time, just to freshen things up. These are usually "one shot" scenes written from the perspective of minor characters ranging from innocent civilians caught up in a slaughter, to the protagonist's mother, to the family cat.

I do it because it seems to be more interesting to tell that bit of the story from an otherwise unexplored angle. In the case of the protag's mother, it felt more visceral to see her son in pain through her eyes than to stick with the protag's POV. She doesn't have a major subplot dedicated to her POV, but I just thought the particular scene worked better when seen through her eyes.

I just ask because I feel like I don't see a lot of this in the published books I read. Therefore, I'm wondering if it's something to avoid. It seems like everything I can remember reading in recent years will include the POV of the main protagonist and usually a handful of secondary characters, each with their own well-defined subplot.

So, are there any thoughts on this? Is it kosher to use a few one-off viewpoints that belong to characters that don't have their own major subplot? Or from a reader's (and a potential publisher's) standpoint, do ya'll think this is something to avoid? Thanks in advance for any advice!

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

The failure mode of one-off viewpoints for a reader, sfaict, is that they look undisciplined.

As a writer, I think they can be an unduly easy out - where it might make for a better story to figure out how to get the relevant information in, or imply it, within an existing POV.

[Quantus]

I think it depends on where and how you do it.  To give an example:  In the Codex Alera books the main plot POV's are Tavi, Amara, Fidelius, and Isana.  But in several of the books there were brief parts that were told from other POV's, often as one-shots. These included Erron, Varg, and a 'redshirt' soldier getting eaten by giant bugs.

To me it didn't take away from the story in those cases though in general there is a danger of throwing off the rhythm of the story.  In general, every time you shift POV's is an opportunity to loose your reader, so you want to make sure they are going to be interested in what you are switching to, which much easier with established characters and plotlines.  It is much easier at the beginning of the book (especially in a Prologue, which is already set apart to some degree) while you are setting the stage and events have not really gotten moving;  later on it is much harder to cleanly jump to an unestablished POV.

[LizW65]

Terry Pratchett has made effective use of this, occasionally switching to the POV of a minor character for a brief scene.  I think the trick is to keep these scenes few and far between, as they retain more impact that way.

[superpsycho]

Whatever works. If you think it makes the scene more effective, then do it.  The only time I find multiple POV distracting is when it's being constantly switched to the point you can't keep track of it.  The goal is to create an interesting and entertaining experience for the reader. Anything that you do towards that end is fine.

[Aminar]

Personally, use small characters rarely but with reason.  Some times you need to show something happening half a continent from the main characters.  Sometimes you need to show how dangerous something is without killing off somebody important.  Just don't abuse it.  3 or 4 per book at max, likely less if you change Point of view frequently.

[Starbeam]

I do it because it seems to be more interesting to tell that bit of the story from an otherwise unexplored angle. In the case of the protag's mother, it felt more visceral to see her son in pain through her eyes than to stick with the protag's POV. She doesn't have a major subplot dedicated to her POV, but I just thought the particular scene worked better when seen through her eyes.

Going by this, sounds like it's possibly the right choice for the scene.  Yeah, it's not done often, but in part that's because most people haven't seen it done often.  I can't say off the top of my head where I've seen it done, if I've even read any books like that, but in one episode of Writing Excuses, Brandon Sanderson talks about this sort of thing.  In one of the Mistborn books, he switched from main character POV into a minor one-off POV.  The episode is hazy, so I don't remember exactly why he did it, but in part it was to give a different perspective on something happening, and to also heighten the tension a bit, I believe. 

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I think it depends on where and how you do it.  To give an example:  In the Codex Alera books the main plot POV's are Tavi, Amara, Fidelius, and Isana.  But in several of the books there were brief parts that were told from other POV's, often as one-shots. These included Erron, Varg, and a 'redshirt' soldier getting eaten by giant bugs.

To each their own; that is, I think, a large part of why those books never quite gelled for me.

[belial.1980]

As a writer, I think they can be an unduly easy out - where it might make for a better story to figure out how to get the relevant information in, or imply it, within an existing POV.

Thank you! This really got me thinking. It reminded me that sometimes imposing limitations can cause you to be more creative. IE it forces you to do more with less. I've actually reworked a couple of POV shifts in my head and plan to take some of these one off's and rewrite them from one the major view points I've already established. I think it should work out better overall.

Personally, use small characters rarely but with reason.  Some times you need to show something happening half a continent from the main characters.  Sometimes you need to show how dangerous something is without killing off somebody important.  Just don't abuse it.  3 or 4 per book at max, likely less if you change Point of view frequently.

Yeah, I actually finished reading a book that had a lot of POV shifts to minor characters. Basically, a whole town was getting turned into vampires and we saw the victims' POV. It was kind of cool but a little annoying at the same time since it's hard to really care about nameless victims #1-17. If I end up using some one off viewpoints, it will definitely be in a limited capacity. I'm going to try and stick with 4 major POVs for this draft: 2 protagonists, 1 antagonist, and 1 that's both and neither at the same time. 
They all have a large part to play in the story and we should get pretty good development of plot and other minor characters through them.

[Quantus]

To each their own; that is, I think, a large part of why those books never quite gelled for me.

Fair enough.  Ive never really minded it, and there are some authors that I respect for their ability to use one-off POV characters well.  Ive seen authors that can establish a character with full characterization, motivations, unique voice, etc with less than a page, which always impressed me.  Guy Gavriel Kay is a good example of this, but to be fair Ive always had an irrational love of the Fionavar Tapestry, so Im probably biased.   

[Paynesgrey]

A good example of a limited but pivotal additional POV's would be Lois McMaster-Bujold's A Civil Campaign.  But it's something I'd use sparingly, not shotgun-style. 

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

A good example of a limited but pivotal additional POV's would be Lois McMaster-Bujold's A Civil Campaign.  But it's something I'd use sparingly, not shotgun-style.

That book's not using one-off POVs for incidental bits, though, but multiple significant POVs.  I suppose some of them are one-offs on a series scale, but I still think there's a qualitative difference there.

[Paynesgrey]

That book's not using one-off POVs for incidental bits, though, but multiple significant POVs.  I suppose some of them are one-offs on a series scale, but I still think there's a qualitative difference there.

Ah, quite right.  I was thinking of terms of POV shifts in general, not small splashes in particular.  With that in mind, I'd use the small splash very, very sparingly. 

[Aminar]

I want to extend the discussion.  Why should you use them.

The biggest reason I can think of.
Fantasy tends to have characters with amazing abilities, abilities they are so used to that the sense of awe or terror just isn't there.  So throw a section in from Joe Blow's perspective where he watches the main character doing something the character sees as routine.  Suddenly that routine thing is probably EPIC.  Or at least that's where I need to use them.

My next project has way too many one offs though.  One of the major plot points is that a series of Madrox style clones that can shapeshift(The last thing shifting allows is self cloning and it makes for a really fun villain) are running a mafia organization and somebody is hunting them.  All of tyhose Madrox clones are slightly different characters, but in many ways the same.  But I need to show hings from their perspective...  It'll be an interesting project.

[The Deposed King]

I want to extend the discussion.  Why should you use them.

The biggest reason I can think of.
Fantasy tends to have characters with amazing abilities, abilities they are so used to that the sense of awe or terror just isn't there.  So throw a section in from Joe Blow's perspective where he watches the main character doing something the character sees as routine.  Suddenly that routine thing is probably EPIC.  Or at least that's where I need to use them.

My next project has way too many one offs though.  One of the major plot points is that a series of Madrox style clones that can shapeshift(The last thing shifting allows is self cloning and it makes for a really fun villain) are running a mafia organization and somebody is hunting them.  All of tyhose Madrox clones are slightly different characters, but in many ways the same.  But I need to show hings from their perspective...  It'll be an interesting project.

I used POV characters in my first book for two reasons.  One was to provide a second point of view.  My first character was all 1st person, so we only got to see what he saw.  It was nice to give you a little base line impression of what was happening underneath his feet.

The second?  Comic relief.  Preferably I'd do both.  Chief Engineer Spalding was a great example.  Bombasitic, informative in his whole, he listens with a scowl, nods slowly before exclaiming 'That's a bunch of space rot lads!  Now you'll do it how I say!' insert sound of a plasma torch being lit up followed by a few practice swings.  Then he'd go off to 'save the day', which in Spalding's estimation could be anything from getting the crew to stop 'slacking' and go preforming a few safety drills, to personally walking into a leaky reactor core with no hope of survival.  To him both were vital tasks, vital you here, to the survival of the ship!

With other characters, the situations they found themselves in were interesting asides, and the conflicts might be funny but not so much the basic natures of the characters themselves.  With the Chief Engineer I had a POV character who took himself so seriously it was comic relief from top to bottomus.