What does Taken Out mean?

[Mr. Death]

Thinking about Demonic Co-Pilot got me thinking...just what lasting effects should being taken out have?

Specifically, this comment by Becq:

The problem is that after using the belt for a short time, all someone would need to do is poke them and they'd keel over, having no consequences left to sacrifice.  I still hold that a Sponsor Debt-style system would be more fun, more playable, more balanced, and better reflecting the "reality", so to speak.

I was going to respond that maybe a Hexenwulf might forgo taking the consequences at all, and allow themselves to simply be mentally Taken Out right off the bat and 'giving in' to the demon, so to speak. But mechanically, how would that giving in be represented? Aspect changes? Temporary aspects?

And then I got to thinking, how exactly does Taken Out work for the other types of conflicts? Yes, I know that whoever does the taking out decides it, but how is it, or can it be, mechanically represented?

Does someone who chooses to be Taken Out by a blow to the head--getting knocked out--suffer no consequences, when he would have taken the Moderate Consequence of a concussion if he'd stayed in the fight?

[JDK002]

In the case of a hexen, I would be a bit bendy with what taken out means.  Being taken out by your own ability would mean you were overpowered by your co-pilot.  Maybe have the character act as a npc for the rest of the conflict that attacks at random be it friend or foe.

Technically the playeris no longer in the fight.  But the entity that give them power is still eager to do some damage.  But I also see how that may be interesting once or twice and get really out of hand and annoying if it's happening every conflict.

[Mr. Death]

Well, the player would no longer be in the Mental fight--the game's clear that if you're taken out on one track, you can still participate in conflicts on the other tracks.

But I'm also talking about beyond the fight and that scene. If you let yourself be Taken Out mentally in this fight scene, what does that mean for the next scene? If you didn't take a consequence, is there a lasting aspect to being taken out?

[JDK002]

Hmm yeah seems rather strange to take yourself out mentally, continue say a physical conflict like nothing happened, then be just fine the second the scene ends.

I would probably just use the easiest mechanic and slap a temp aspect that acts as a consiquence that lasts for a scene or two.  Or you could treat it as a debt and get a free compel from the character.

[Sanctaphrax]

Take-outs can do anything, by my reading. Inflict consequences, dictate behaviour, whatever.

The confusion around what being taken out by Demonic Co-Pilot means is one of the problems with that Power.

My default assumption is that the character becomes an excessively-violent NPC for the rest of the scene. Which frequently means absolutely nothing, since characters with Demonic Co-Pilot are often excessively-violent NPCs anyway.

Which kinda makes all that dice-rolling feel meaningless...

[Haru]

But mechanically, how would that giving in be represented? Aspect changes? Temporary aspects?

I think the best is to define a "new" concept: goals.
The DFRPG is written as a mirror to Jim's writing style, so we can go from his livejournal posts. In a conflict, you have opposing sides and each side has a goal. The side that wins the conflict can achieve their goal, the losing side does not. The middle ground would be a concession, where both sides win (or most often probably both sides lose). If you start out like that, it is much easier to figure out what is going to happen, once the fight is over.

I've just had something like that in my pbp, where a character wanted to interrogate a captured vampire. We started with a social conflict, where each of the opponents tried to convince the other to join his cause (or at least help him). The character won, and then we entered a Sequel, where the character just asked his questions and the vampire answered, no further roll of a die needed.

In your demonic co-pilot example, the demon's goal would probably be full control of the body to go on a killing spree (though depending on the demon, it might be a little more refined). The host would most likely not want to give up his control, he only wants to use the transformation to kill some drugdealer and be done with it. Now if the host already has some consequences, the demon might just hit him again, when he is trying to do something important, and the only way the host can prevent that is taking an extreme consequence. Of course, you can always push on consequences the has taken to keep control before, which will probably get him to take an extreme consequence much quicker. A concession could be, that the host allows the demon control for a short time, if he also takes care of his goal. The GM would of course have to find a way to make a concession dangerous enough for the player to consider his options, otherwise he'd just always "let the dogs out" and be done with it.

Especially in this case, you can write down the goal of the winner as an aspect. That way, you can let the player keep playing his character, but you can also compel (without a fate point, it's a tag on the taken out aspect) him to play out the demon's goal.

[Becq]

Hm.

For something like a Hexenwolf, that would make the "disadvantage" part of the power basically meaningless:

Demon: You must kill them!  Kill them all!  Eat their entrails!  <inflicts X mental stress>
Hexenwolf: Actually, I'm cool with that.  It was kinda my plan anyway...  Have at 'em, just top off the tank when your done!  <accepts the takeout, or conceeds, as appropriate>
Demon: Yay!  <kills a lot>

For players, it means that either the player wants what the demon wants (in which case the GM gets to play the character during fights, which is silly) or the character struggles against the demon, in which case you have the very poorly designed power that we had been discussing in the other thread.

So if you accept that it is an NPC power, it seems fine.  As a PC power, it's crap.

[ways and means]

Con-session Territory
Demon "I want you to kill them all."
Player "Ok so I will kill them all in my own way."
Demon: Your own ultra-violent way.
Player: Accepted.

[Haru]

If both opposites have the same goal, they are not really opposites (and there is no real conflict). In this case, the demon might want to do something more. wreak even more havoc, find and kill some innocents. For a PC, there is most often than not the problem with teammates, where the demonic co pilot becomes the typical berserker who can't differentiate between friend and foe, his objective is just to kill kill kill.

That's what I meant. The player and the GM have to find ways to make the drawback of the power interesting, which is a pretty thin line, because it can either mean you won't use it ever, or you would use it all the time because there are no drawbacks.

[Sanctaphrax]

So if you accept that it is an NPC power, it seems fine.

Not in my experience.

As an NPC power, I've found Demonic Co-Pilot to be a bunch of pointless dice-rolling.

[InFerrumVeritas]

For DCP to work, the player and GM need to agree that being taken out by it essentially means Death.  That is, that character becomes an NPC.  This gives incentive to take consequences or concede.  And, like always, the concession needs to be bad enough to make it a clear disadvantage for the character.

Personally, I'd say Taken Out is permanent NPC.  Concession would be Temporary NPC (for a scene or more) that places the character in the GM's control.  This'll likely end up with lots of physical consequences or possibly a long term temporary aspect.

But for the power to work, the Taken Out result must be permanent or semi-permanent.

[Rougarou]

For DCP to work, the player and GM need to agree that being taken out by it essentially means Death.  That is, that character becomes an NPC.  This gives incentive to take consequences or concede.  And, like always, the concession needs to be bad enough to make it a clear disadvantage for the character.

Personally, I'd say Taken Out is permanent NPC.  Concession would be Temporary NPC (for a scene or more) that places the character in the GM's control.  This'll likely end up with lots of physical consequences or possibly a long term temporary aspect.

But for the power to work, the Taken Out result must be permanent or semi-permanent.

While I agree with the spirit of this, I disagree with it in principle. It would really suck for someone to lose thier character in a conflict with themself. I would say that Taken Out would result in a temporary NPC but concessions would be shapeshifting out of the form it's linked to or sitting out the rest of the conflict while the character "struggles against the demon." But then, like many others, I hate this power and agree that the the cons outweigh the pros on this one... The least I can say about it is that it should be a +0 power due to it's downside (I can't quite say it should be +1... but it's close). The sad thing is it's actually a decent model for the type of internal struggle the power implies, it's just really poorly executed. 

I may try playtesting a new method soon, because I prefer the idea of something like this (but better) over the use of sponsor debt mechanics. Two possible methods I'm considering are tracking the number of exchanges in a conflict in which the demon helps the player and then requiring the player to roll Discipline against that as a mental attack at the end of the conflict. If the player gets taken out by the resulting roll, he attacks his teammates. On each exchange he rolls his Discipline again against the same target number. His teammates may apply aspects to him through appropriate skills in order to help him in his struggle to regain control. Or they can take him out. He cannot concede at this point.

The second method is similar to the first, except that for every exchange in which the demon helped the the character, a roll is made against the character's discipline. The strength of that roll will be determined by the conviction of the demon, which is set by the GM. This method at least means that a character with a high Fists skill and low Discipline isn't rolling against his own high Fists skill +1 and gives the DM power to mitigate the rolls.

[Richard_Chilton]

In this case, I see "taken out" meaning that the Co-pilot takes charge for a scene.

Yes, you and the co-pilot both want to kill those people, but how about those people a block away? Or how about some wild and inappropriate sex - the sort that was hinted at by the FBI agents.  Or how about damaging the car you came in, the one you were planning to leave in - meaning a more dangerous trip home, maybe causing you to invoke the power again.

In my view, this power is more closely linked to Lawbreaker than sponsored magic.

Richard

[Jimmy]

I'd make the result of being taken out by a Hexenwulf belt make a permanent aspect change on the character. To reflect letting go and allowing the demonic copilot you know, be the pilot. Or at least as a the result of it being used repeatedly.

[Mr. Death]

That's the way I was thinking of going, honestly. Letting a PC go NPC is rarely fun, and it gives them an option beyond soaking up their consequences and subsequently getting Taken Out physically the first time they blow a dodge roll.