Harry's Duster as an Item of Power

[AstronaughtAndy]

So it occured to me the other day that you could model Harry's Duster (and similar defensive garments) as an Item of Power. Basically granting a Toughness power with a catch of something like massive trauma (ie. being hit by a car, falling off a building, swords the size of a car, etc.). Its mostly just an idea I want to bounce off of you.

Advantages: On all the time. Not dependent on a high Lore. Extra stress boxes let you take more punishment. Requires an Aspect.

Disadvantages: An enchanted item with a magical block could produce a much higher Armor bonus, or a Block that many things would be unable to beat.

Refresh cost: I'm thinking the catch is around a +2-3 (it is not terribly difficult for mortals to acquire a car and not terribly difficult for a giant monster to throw a car at you). If its your first IoP, it'd get a +2(?) discount, bringing it up to a +4-5 so you're probably looking at Mythic Toughness for the Power granted.

Thoughts, feelings, comments, hopes, dreams, wishes?

[Sanctaphrax]

It's rules-legal. In fact, it's been done before. Though usually with a Catch like poison, because armour does nothing against stuff like that.

The bit about IoP being too awesome for mortals to make will have to be ditched, but that's okay.

I should warn you before you actually use this, though, that this is pretty overpowered.

[AstronaughtAndy]

Overpowered specifically because of the high level Toughness power?

I realized after I posted that rules/fluffwise IoPs arent makeable by mortal spellcasters, but like you said, it can be ditched.

So trying to tone it down powerwise, what if the extra stress was sort of like Hunger stress and wasnt cleared after an encounter/scene? Maybe it requires some sort of maintenance, like Lore or Craftsmanship rolls to clear away stress boxes?

[Sanctaphrax]

Overpowered because you're getting difficult-to-penetrate Mythic Toughness for 1 Refresh.

You can add arbitrary limitations if you want. It's just papering over flaws with the rules, but that's not necessarily bad.

[Rougarou]

Mythic Toughness would be a bit much. Especially if this is something the character has supposedly made. As stated, you are already bending the rules here, but that's mostly just narrative anyway... Still if he can make a coat of mythic toughness, what can't he make?  I'd keep it to Inhuman in my game, but that's me.

Also, instead of saying that large amounts of trauma are the Catch, I would just make the Catch be anything that isn't blunt force trauma or slashing. That's a +3 Catch on a -2 power, plus the rebate for Item of Power (probably a -2)... All in all your potential rebate is +5, and your only getting +1 (due to the cost of Inhuman Toughness), but like I told one of my players, having the refresh doesn't mean you can spend it on any power you want.

Mechanically its the same as having bought Refinement for slots and used both to build an always on Armor:1 item, except for the extra stress boxes.

[Sanctaphrax]

Mythic Toughness would be a bit much. Especially if this is something the character has supposedly made. As stated, you are already bending the rules here, but that's mostly just narrative anyway... Still if he can make a coat of mythic toughness, what can't he make?  I'd keep it to Inhuman in my game, but that's me.

So if it was made by someone else, then you'd let him take Mythic Toughness?

Why should one line of mostly-unimportant backstory give or take 4 Refresh?

Mechanically its the same as having bought Refinement for slots and used both to build an always on Armor:1 item, except for the extra stress boxes.

Always on item? What's that?

[InFerrumVeritas]

So if it was made by someone else, then you'd let him take Mythic Toughness?

Why should one line of mostly-unimportant backstory give or take 4 Refresh?

Always on item? What's that?

Typically proof that someone doesn't have the final version of the rules.  Or didn't read them.

[Mr. Death]

I think by "always on" he means that it doesn't take conscious effort to activate--like the armor in Harry's duster.

I'd also caution against letting someone get Mythic Toughness in this manner. Mythic Toughness is, well, the next best thing to just being invincible. Absent the Catch, it takes a 14-shift hit to even force a mild consequence, meaning that even something with Mythic Strength and a weapon is still going to need a significant roll difference just to scratch you. In normal combat, I'd wager nothing short of a wizard going all out (or someone spending a ridiculous amount of fate points or the entire fight maneuvering) is going to touch you. Definitely overpowered for so low a cost.

[Rougarou]

So if it was made by someone else, then you'd let him take Mythic Toughness?

Why should one line of mostly-unimportant backstory give or take 4 Refresh?

If it were made by a sponsor who had an agenda, limiting it's use and enforcing compels and restrictions on the player character; then yes, I'd be far more likely to let someone take Mythic Toughness for -1 refresh (which is what the cost is when you factor in rebates for the Catch and Item of Power).

And the mostly unimportant backstory is part of the reasonableness test. If players bought powers simply because they could afford them, any player with the free refresh could buy Physical Immunity to mortal magic at -2 refresh (-8 total cost, +2 for an Item of Power, +2 for protecting against one thing, +2 for "not magic" being easy to come by), Beast Change and Supernatural Strength for -1 (-5 initial cost, +2 for an Item of Power rebate, +1 for Human Form, +1 for Involuntary Change [with a condition on the change of something like "when I'm angry," it usually won't even matter that it's involuntary]), etc.

All of that is fine if the character has a valid reason in their backstory, complete with the Aspects and restrictions inherit to such arrangements, to have those Items of Power; such as being the emissary of some old god who hates mortal wizards or being a favorite of Thor gifted with an Amulet of the Berserker. Saying, "I made myself a jacket that puts my toughness on par with that of an ogre," is not a valid reason in my opinion. As I stated above, what's to stop a character who was allowed to do that from "making" more such Items of Power for himself or other players.

By allowing him to make himself an Item of Power giving any Toughness power, you're already ignoring the rules. By limiting the level of power granted, you're minimizing the impact of that. I'm just trying to prevent him winding up like the guy who posted a while back asking for help on how to reset his whole campaign because he let his players become too powerful.

Always on item? What's that?

and

Typically proof that someone doesn't have the final version of the rules.  Or didn't read them.

and

I think by "always on" he means that it doesn't take conscious effort to activate--like the armor in Harry's duster.

What Mr. Death said. Plus, I actually only have the final version of the rules. I'm aware that there was a pre-release copy that had rules providing for creating an item which is always on (something about halving the effect, I believe?) but that's only because someone mistakenly copied and pasted from the wrong PDF one time. I'm glad that they took that out, because I could see how overpowered it could become with refinements. If I'd never read the final version of the rules, I'd have just suggested he use the aforementioned, no longer in the rules, method.

[ways and means]

All of that is fine if the character has a valid reason in their backstory, complete with the Aspects and restrictions inherit to such arrangements, to have those Items of Power; such as being the emissary of some old god who hates mortal wizards or being a favorite of Thor gifted with an Amulet of the Berserker. Saying, "I made myself a jacket that puts my toughness on par with that of an ogre," is not a valid reason in my opinion. As I stated above, what's to stop a character who was allowed to do that from "making" more such Items of Power for himself or other players.

By allowing him to make himself an Item of Power giving any Toughness power, you're already ignoring the rules. By limiting the level of power granted, you're minimizing the impact of that. I'm just trying to prevent him winding up like the guy who posted a while back asking for help on how to reset his whole campaign because he let his players become too powerful.

All IoP must have an aspect relating to them, saying your mythic toughness dragon plate was stolen from a dragons lair or that it passed down through your family as an heirloom is not mechanically different from saying you made it yourself both require an aspects as raw but the aspect Dragon Plunderer is no worse or better than the aspect creator of wonders. Coming up with justification are easy they shouldn't provide a mechanical advantage.

[Rougarou]

All IoP must have an aspect relating to them, saying your mythic toughness dragon plate was stolen from a dragons lair or that it passed down through your family as an heirloom is not mechanically different from saying you made it yourself both require an aspects as raw but the aspect Dragon Plunderer is no worse or better than the aspect creator of wonders. Coming up with justification are easy they shouldn't provide a mechanical advantage.

True, but I wouldn't allow a wizard to have Dragon Plate with Mythic Toughness as an Item of Power either. Why? Cost to benefit ratio is way off. As I have said repeatedly, that level of power should come from an item attached to a sponsor. Compels would be involved and sometimes the power might just not work because the sponsor doesn't support what you're doing.

Coming up with justification is part of what the RP in the DFRPG is all about. It shouldn't be discounted. Otherwise you devolve into a game where you have a character with wings, evocation, thaumaturgy, physical immunity, mythic speed, mythic strength, domination, gaseous form, possession, and incite emotion because the refresh level got so high and the character managed to afford all of it. Before taking a power, always ask yourself, "Why should my character have this power?" If you're answer is, "Because I can afford it and want it," and only that; you're not roleplaying, you're power gaming. That said, if you want to allow someone to have Mythic Toughness for one refresh with no strings attached, that's fine. I'm just saying I won't and I don't recommend it.

[amberpup]

Before taking a power, always ask yourself, "Why should my character have this power?" If you're answer is, "Because I can afford it and want it," and only that; you're not roleplaying, you're power gaming. That said, if you want to allow someone to have Mythic Toughness for one refresh with no strings attached, that's fine. I'm just saying I won't and I don't recommend it.

I think you do us a disservice here, to say only with some sort of in-depth character reflection makes it allowable for you to take a power. Over the years, I have taken powers that did fit my character or concept, just sounded neat, or to cover some personal or group lacking.

This is neither power-gaming, nor is it role-playing, but merely a fact of gaming.

So on character creation day, if you can show-up at the table with a ten page write-up about your character... great for you. I, and many of those that I've shared a game table with, start with just a seed of a idea for what we want our character to be. With the hope the character will become full form once in play, be it a few sessions or more. And I hate to say, its also because some GMs have trust issues. Its easier to come to the table with less, then get heartbroken as the GM goes over your concept and starts tossing stuff for varies reasons like .... claims of power gaming.

And one of the reason I like DFRPG, is even if the player has a duster that gives mythic toughness for 1 pt.... you still have two other stats you can take them down with. As to strings, the player would have the right to simply fulfill that with a aspect.

Yet I will admit, the Duster with Mythic Toughness for only 1 pt is walking dangerously close to the  edge for most gamemasters. But then, my channeler would had protection just as good if I had kept playing him (using xp, and having a high lore).

[Mr. Death]

I think you do us a disservice here, to say only with some sort of in-depth character reflection makes it allowable for you to take a power. Over the years, I have taken powers that did fit my character or concept, just sounded neat, or to cover some personal or group lacking.

Except that's not what he said. What he said was that the power should fit the character and who he or she is, not that any power requires "in-depth character reflection".

Hell, the Mythic set of powers says right in the text that they're not something PCs are likely to ever have, even though with the Catch, even a 6-refresh character ought to be able to afford it. "I can afford it" isn't enough justification. Powers should fit the character.

[amberpup]

Except that's not what he said. What he said was that the power should fit the character and who he or she is, not that any power requires "in-depth character reflection".

Hell, the Mythic set of powers says right in the text that they're not something PCs are likely to ever have, even though with the Catch, even a 6-refresh character ought to be able to afford it. "I can afford it" isn't enough justification. Powers should fit the character.

Can you then define for me, who judges what is 'fit' for the character? The Gm or the Player? Or both? I mean, most gamers I know could justify most anything for their characters. Its kinda like the saying 'Any attorney knows you can get a indictement with a ham sandwich.' Just looking in the book to read-up on Mythic Toughness, I flipped by 'Marked by Power'... so would that be enough to get the Mythic Toughness Duster for 1 pt?

And before we forget, Mythic Toughness only gives you 3 pts of armor.... not a huge game killer. Its only when you add the six more boxes of physical stress it becomes super cool. Which I don't think a enchanted duster will give you...

The coat might have six boxes of physical stress, but I don't see how that would transfer to the character wearing it.

"As to the second point.. I do agree, since it says;

You must have a high concept that
fits taking one of these abilities. The Mythic
level is nearly always reserved for potent NPCs,
as is the special Physical Immunity ability.
Toughness abilities require you to define the
circumstances under which the ability is effec-
tivethis is represented by a stunt attached
to your toughness abilities called the Catch,
defined below."

YS-Page 184

But still, a duster with only 3 pts of armor isn't that much with wizards running around with about the same.

[Mr. Death]

Can you then define for me, who judges what is 'fit' for the character? The Gm or the Player? Or both? I mean, most gamers I know could justify most anything for their characters. Its kinda like the saying 'Any attorney knows you can get a indictement with a ham sandwich.' Just looking in the book to read-up on Mythic Toughness, I flipped by 'Marked by Power'... so would that be enough to get the Mythic Toughness Duster for 1 pt?

It's collaborative. The player asks, the GM moderates based on what makes sense.

And I don't know. Is whoever marked the PC someone who could and would give them that much toughness? Mythic Toughness is a big deal. It's the next best thing to being invincible. That is a lot of power.

And before we forget, Mythic Toughness only gives you 3 pts of armor.... not a huge game killer. Its only when you add the six more boxes of physical stress it becomes super cool. Which I don't think a enchanted duster will give you...

The coat might have six boxes of physical stress, but I don't see how that would transfer to the character wearing it.

If you're only talking about the Armor:3, then you're not talking about Mythic Toughness. The power is a package deal: The armor and the stress boxes. That's how items of power work--you wear them, and they give you the power. If it's just Armor:3, then why make it a power and not just an enchanted item? Much simpler to deal with.