Thaumaturgy and Wards

[Bernd]

Hey guys,

today, one question was raised. Someone casts a spell via thaumaturgy, let’s say some generic heart-exploding spell that inflicts about 36 shifts of stress. When the target now sits behind a ward with a strength of 8, and thus not having enough shifts in the spell to kill its target, does the spell fail or does it still inflict 28 shifts of stress?

Or asked more generally, when using thaumaturgy to inflict consequences (thaumaturgy based on conflict), is the stress taken really the amount equal to the complexity, or is this just a guideline for the needed shifts to successfully cast the spell? Another example: When casting a not so little curse to inflict a severe consequence of SERIOUS ILLNESS that would require about 17 shifts of complexity (+3 Endurance, 4 stress track, 4 best possible result, 6 for a severe consequence), does the target really receives 17 shifts of stress (the target still has to roll against it, and it will probably even have to take another consequence) or just a severe consequence (as if receiving 6 shifts of stress that have all been soaked up by a severe consequence)? When the target no is behind a threshold of +2, does the spell fail or does the target only receive 15 shifts of stress?

Thanks for your answers,
Bernd

[Richard_Chilton]

If you have a good enough symbolic link, then does the spell have to cross a threshold?

Dave the warlock has a part of you - your hair torn out by the roots.  He casts the spell on the part of you that is with him and it affects the rest of you.  No need to worry about range, if it's crossing running water, etc because in a very real mystic way you're in the room with Dave the warlock.

Richard

[Bernd]

Ok, maybe not thresholds. But what about wards? The rules explicitly tell that you need to add the strength of the ward to the complexity of the spell. But what happens if I don’t know that there is a ward and my spell has not enough power?

[Richard_Chilton]

Four of those steps are matching the best possible defense roll.  If 8 steps are stripped by the ward then the spell only works if the target rolls -4 (the worse possible defense roll).

Basically, a spell either works or it fails.  If it doesn't get passed the defense roll, it fails.  It doesn't partly work, any more than a really bad defense roll can make things worse.  Unless your group decides that for dramatic reasons it does do something - like turn the victim's hair white or give him a sticky aspect like "I Almost Died There".

The spell either working at full strength or failing is why that 36 number could be a bit low even if the target isn't protected.  What if the target has a Superb Endurance and stunt that gives him an extra mild physical consequence? Then that would make the total (with the best defense roll) a 40.

Of course if you're not looking for a sure thing, you can risk them making the defense roll and leave a step or two off.  If they need a +4 roll to defend against the spell then there's only a 1 in 81 chance that the target's roll will throw off the spell, and that extra +1 can matter on time sensitive rolls.

Richard

[Mr. Death]

Four of those steps are matching the best possible defense roll.  If 8 steps are stripped by the ward then the spell only works if the target rolls -4 (the worse possible defense roll).

That's not how Blocks work, as I recall. You roll defense if a block is bypassed, yes, but you take the larger of the two. If you have a block of 8, and your defense roll is 0, then you go with the 8 as defense.

Basically, a spell either works or it fails.  If it doesn't get passed the defense roll, it fails.  It doesn't partly work, any more than a really bad defense roll can make things worse.  Unless your group decides that for dramatic reasons it does do something - like turn the victim's hair white or give him a sticky aspect like "I Almost Died There".

Not entirely true. As I understand it, a thaumaturgic attack is basically a big attack roll without an attack rating, not an 8-shift attack roll with a Weapon:28 rating. So yes, it can partially work--you'd take consequences to avoid being taken out just like with any other attack you couldn't dodge.

Ok, maybe not thresholds. But what about wards? The rules explicitly tell that you need to add the strength of the ward to the complexity of the spell. But what happens if I don’t know that there is a ward and my spell has not enough power?

It might still take the guy out--it's just not a sure thing, if he's got consequences to soak it up.

[Tedronai]

If you have a good enough symbolic link, then does the spell have to cross a threshold?

Yes, it does.

[Richard_Chilton]

That's not how Blocks work, as I recall. You roll defense if a block is bypassed, yes, but you take the larger of the two. If you have a block of 8, and your defense roll is 0, then you go with the 8 as defense.

From the section on wards:
If the attack surpasses the block strength of the ward, then the ward is breached; apply whatever shifts get through to the target just like bypassing a block (page 210).

So a spell with 36 steps hitting a 8 Ward would mean applying 28 steps to the target...

If it is considered an attack.  Something has me thinking that if the symbolic link is strong enough that it spell bypasses the ward as opposed being treated as an attack going through it.  Nothing in the ward section on that...

Not entirely true. As I understand it, a thaumaturgic attack is basically a big attack roll without an attack rating, not an 8-shift attack roll with a Weapon:28 rating. So yes, it can partially work--you'd take consequences to avoid being taken out just like with any other attack you couldn't dodge.

But it's not an attack.  Attacks aren't listed as something that thaumaturgy can do.  Thaumaturgy can do simple actions, maneuvers, and (most importantly of all) Contests and Conflicts. To quote from that section:
"The most complex spells outright kill people, leave them permanently insane, or transform them forever. These require enough shifts to bypass the resisting skill and all levels of consequence, including extreme. Victor Sells’ killing spell from the Storm Front casefile needs 32 shifts of complexity to do the job: enough to beat Harry’s Endurance, stress track, mild, moderate, severe, and extreme consequences, and an extra shift to take him out!"

That's not an attack.  That's a magical effect that leave the target dead.  There's no weapon rating, no targeting, only "You live" or "You die".

It might still take the guy out--it's just not a sure thing, if he's got consequences to soak it up.

If you have enough shifts to take someone out, then the death spell works.  Or the shapeshifting one spell works.  Or the "You think you're a chicken" spell spell works.

If you don't, then the spell fails.

Richard

[Tedronai]

Something has me thinking that if the symbolic link is strong enough that it spell bypasses the ward as opposed being treated as an attack going through it.  Nothing in the ward section on that...

I am quite convinced that this interpretation is wholly of your own making.  If you do implement it in game, let us know how it turns out.

[Richard_Chilton]

I am quite convinced that this interpretation is wholly of your own making.  If you do implement it in game, let us know how it turns out.

Part of it comes from:
"My hair. The man had cut off my hair. It could be used in almost any kind of magic, any kind of deadly spell, and there wouldn't be a damned thing I could do to stop it."

Which isn't the same as:
"My hair. The man had cut off my hair. It could be used in almost any kind of magic, any kind of deadly spell, so I should spend the afternoon increasing the power of my ward."

Part of it is the theory behind Thaumaturgy, that casting a spell on part of the whole is the same as casting it on the whole.

Part of it is the number of times that thresholds haven't matter.   From the nightmare-demon in Grave Peril to the boogeyman in AAAA Wizardry, thresholds (and the wards linked to those thresholds) get bypassed.

Then there are mirrors.  As AAAA Wizardry points out, things can enter a house through a mirror and thus bypass the threshold.  Which is why Dresden leaves his mirrors facing the wall when he's not using them.

And there's the fact that wards stop attacks, but attack isn't listed as one of the things you do with thaumaturgy...


As for using it my game, I don't think it would get much use.  Not a lot of spell sniping at a distance going on there.

Richard

[Radecliffe]

If you go by the books then Thaumaturgy using a symbolic link should go through a ward like a hot knife through butter.  Of course the quote about the hair comes from the first book IIRC.  Harry got a lot better at wards as time went on so it is possible that could change.  The RAW don't seem to be quite so clear cut on the topic. 

[Tedronai]

IIRC, the nightmare-demon is actually quite clearly explained as having had to work around thresholds, waiting until Harry's psyche had traversed the veil into the Nevernever, essentially the same as jumping him in the street outside his house.

[Radecliffe]

IIRC, the nightmare-demon is actually quite clearly explained as having had to work around thresholds, waiting until Harry's psyche had traversed the veil into the Nevernever, essentially the same as jumping him in the street outside his house.

True but Harry was certain that the heart exploding spell was going to kill him once Shadowman got some of his hair and there was nothing he could do to stop it. 

[Tedronai]

He was also convinced that he would likely be incapable of producing a similar effect.  Until he thought it through, figured out how it was being done, and realized that it was actually much easier than he had originally thought.

[UmbraLux]

So a spell with 36 steps hitting a 8 Ward would mean applying 28 steps to the target...

If it is considered an attack. 

Yes, agreed to here.

Something has me thinking that if the symbolic link is strong enough that it spell bypasses the ward as opposed being treated as an attack going through it.  Nothing in the ward section on that...

Well, nothing there on that because you appear to be creating it yourself.    Mechanically a symbolic link is a) required and b) may be an aspect.  So it may give you a +2 to complexity.  It's not going to bypass defenses.

But it's not an attack.  Attacks aren't listed as something that thaumaturgy can do.  Thaumaturgy can do simple actions, maneuvers, and (most importantly of all) Contests and Conflicts....

Check YS197.  Fight scenes are explicitly a conflict.  Thaumaturgy doesn't need to specify attacks because attacks are a subset of conflicts...which it does specify.

[Richard_Chilton]

Check YS197.  Fight scenes are explicitly a conflict.  Thaumaturgy doesn't need to specify attacks because attacks are a subset of conflicts...which it does specify.

And that's what I get for looking too closely at the wording...

Richard