Using Fists, Guns and Weaponry with Evocation

[AstronaughtAndy]

Howdy, y'all. I'm about to start GMing some urban fantasy games with the DFRPG as the basis, and it seems to me that one of the things that makes Evoking the best choice for dealing damage is that the Discipline roll to control the spell is also the attack roll. The result is of course, that a 10 shift blast of flame will also generally have a targeting roll of 10 or more. So I'm thinking that instead I'm going to require that targeting rolls for Evocations have to be with an appropriate attack skill. Anyone try this? Anyone have an opinion positive or negative about it? For non Rote spells this will of course require an extra dice roll, but having just come home from an Solar Exalted game, an extra 4df does not seem like that big of a deal.

The other thing I'm not crazy about is that Evocation spells have a range of "sight," so I'm thinking about requiring shifts of power to be put into increasing the range. Probably 1 shift for every zone. Thoughts?

[Fenrir423]

The thing with using a different skill is that it adds one more skill that the wizard needs in his skill pyramid to be effective when their magic already uses 3 separate skills. Also keep in mind that a wizard using a Weapon:10 spell needs to ROLL a 10 on the control roll which, depending on the level of play you start at, probably requires spending one or more Fate points which the wizard has less access to. Not saying that wizards aren't dominating at higher refresh levels in terms of stress dealt in a single turn, but trying to balance them can end up gimping them more than intended.

A fairly straightforward balance is having the bonus from Foci/Specializations to Control apply only to the actual control roll so that the attack roll itself is just an unmodified Discipline roll (either a second roll, or taking the Control roll and remove out the bonuses from Foci and Specialization), but I haven't had a chance to test it in game so I don't know how well it works.

Also, extra shifts for range aren't really needed. Any combat using a battlefield more than 2 or 3 zones wide in any direction probably means that the enemies have their own means to cover that range and even rifles can attack from 2 zones away without any sort of penalty so limiting Evocation to a target within 2 zones isn't unreasonable.

[AstronaughtAndy]

In a one shot I ran, which featured a bandit encounter in a forest, had a 5 zone wide field (road in the middle, 2 zones of forest on either side). I guess what I'm concerned about is the, "I Fireball them from 600 feet away!" sort of thing. And I bring up the range thing, in part because Breath Weapon (which I know some feel is underpowered) has a range of 1(?) zone and Incite Emotion has the 2 zone range option.

I dunno, but coming from DMing D&D I might be a little biased towards nerfing wizards.

[UmbraLux]

I dunno, but coming from DMing D&D I might be a little biased towards nerfing wizards.

If your goal is balance between character archetypes you'll need to pull back the wizards a bit.  That said, it is worth noting the Dresdenverse is built around the concept of wizards (and other spell casters) as a core theme and as one of, if not the, most powerful mortal (in the sense of being able to die) being.  The game stays pretty true to that conceit.

Howdy, y'all. I'm about to start GMing some urban fantasy games with the DFRPG as the basis, and it seems to me that one of the things that makes Evoking the best choice for dealing damage is that the Discipline roll to control the spell is also the attack roll. The result is of course, that a 10 shift blast of flame will also generally have a targeting roll of 10 or more. So I'm thinking that instead I'm going to require that targeting rolls for Evocations have to be with an appropriate attack skill. Anyone try this? Anyone have an opinion positive or negative about it? For non Rote spells this will of course require an extra dice roll, but having just come home from an Solar Exalted game, an extra 4df does not seem like that big of a deal.

I posted the math once in one of my discussions with Sanctaphrax but the largest reason spellcasters are so powerful is simple - both damage and targeting are based on and increased by skills.  Worse, so are foci (in part).  And skills are both easy and cheap to boost.  Foci, and to a lesser degree specializations, make it worse but it starts with skills.  Changing the skill used makes it somewhat more expensive but doesn't address the core issue.  It just makes the wizard less capable in other areas.

There was another discussion where Sanctaphrax and others posted a list of possible nerfs.  If you're sold on nerfing spell casting I suggest looking that up.

The other thing I'm not crazy about is that Evocation spells have a range of "sight," so I'm thinking about requiring shifts of power to be put into increasing the range. Probably 1 shift for every zone. Thoughts?

Playing primarily in an urban environment, this has never seemed a big issue to me.  Sight lines are simply too obstructed by buildings, rooms, vehicles, and bystanders.  The longest spell target I remember in play was the length of an alley.

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Personally, I'm not sold on most of the nerfs.  Not because I don't think casting couldn't use some but because it changes the flavor of the game...moves it a bit further away from the Dresdenverse. 

I prefer the subtle "nerf by adding abilities".  Allow reactionary blocks and make dispelling more useful.  Both will give the wizard something to do other than throw major attacks around while still sucking up limited mental stress.  Also, never allow stunts/powers which increase mental stress for casting - mental stress is a spell casters' one big limitation.  Of course it also helps to have players who want to work as a group.

[Chrono]

I suppose nerfing wizards is necessary for combat from a DnD point of view, but I have always found in the Dresden Files that a few extra fate points and some creative storytelling go a long way to keep characters on equal ground.

[Silverblaze]

I suppose nerfing wizards is necessary for combat from a DnD point of view, but I have always found in the Dresden Files that a few extra fate points and some creative storytelling go a long way to keep characters on equal ground.

You're quite correct until the late game ( 15 - 20 refresh range) then refinements start really pullingaway from what other characters can do.  Even then sufficient planning or sneaking or Fate Points can even the odds.  I've found that to not always be hte case however and wizards/spellcasters to be pretty epic later on.

[AstronaughtAndy]

I'm not really worried about changing the flavor away from the DV, because I'm working on my own generic urban fantasty campaign setting, possibly with some superhero flavor mixed in. I'm not totally sure if the setting will incorporate the laws of magic, for example.

[UmbraLux]

I'm not really worried about changing the flavor away from the DV, because I'm working on my own generic urban fantasty campaign setting, possibly with some superhero flavor mixed in. I'm not totally sure if the setting will incorporate the laws of magic, for example.

You're also looking for a tactical balance of relative power?  Have you chosen a target archetype to balance against?

Say you want to reduce evocation to a level relatively close to a mortal shooter - the simplest way is to simply remove Discipline as a source of power and use it only for control / targeting.  I'd also change casting so you only take stress if power exceeds Conviction.  At this point your sources of power are only foci and specializations.  Roughly equivalent to guns and stunts.  You're not really a superman anymore though, just using a different kind of 'gun'. 

Need to choose a target level and work towards balancing to it.  You probably don't want to go as far as my off the cuff example does. 

[Sanctaphrax]

Evocation is the game's most damaging effect, but it's also its most expensive.

The huge numbers come at the cost of three high skill slots and a bunch of Refresh. The main reason that Evocation outstrips everything at 20 Refresh is that you can actually use that pile of Refresh on it. (Skill-based scaling helps too, of course.)

I don't believe it's overpowered, except in a couple of narrow ways.

And I completely disagree with UmbraLux about the setting emulation bit.

And that's all I'll say about that for now, since I don't want to derail anything. Well-worn argument anyway.

Now, for the actual topic:

As UmbraLux said, I did once make a thread about ways to nerf wizards. It's here. Maybe you'll find it useful, I dunno.

I'd advise against any Evocation nerf that makes spellcasting more complex. Since spells have so many fiddly bits, it's easy to reduce their power in a way that makes them simpler.

Then again, if you played Exalted complexity probably isn't a big issue.

[AstronaughtAndy]

Hmm. I may try a few of those.

I guess powerwise, I'm aiming for Evokers to be on par with the guys with assault rifles on full auto. In D&D terms I'm thinking more "average blaster sorcerer" and less "metamagicked-out-the-wahzoo cheese fest." Thats the best I think I can describe it.

The flip side of this might be to increase weapon power a bit? It seems a bit odd to me personally that most mortal weaponry is only between weapon: 1 and 3.

I should also mention that my plans regarding the campaign will probably escalate into a full on mortal vs. supernatural war (Seven Lords of Hell may be delivering a televised address to the world announcing their intentions to bring down Hell on Earth), so the party packing heavy weaponry probably wont be a huge issue after a point. But going nova with magic will also be less of a big deal, so...who knows?

[benign]

If all you want out of your magic options is blaster mages, then you can toss thaumaturgy right out. Getting rid of evocation in favor of the more limited channeling ability might also suit you nicely. If you want to reduce the power and flexibility of magic-users even more, then you'll have to get into the realm of houseruling.

[crusher_bob]

The flip side of this might be to increase weapon power a bit? It seems a bit odd to me personally that most mortal weaponry is only between weapon: 1 and 3.

It's probably more accurate to say that the type of mortal weaponry that appears in noir type stories is between 1 and 3.  Thinks like crew served weapons, recoilless rifles, and anti-tank missiles just don't show up.

As for comparing mortals to evokers:
Non-PC class, but competent, mortal gunman:
Targeting 3, weapon 3 (assault rifle)
Non-PC class evoker:
targeting 4 (discipline 3 + focus item), weapon 3 (conviction 3)

10 refresh wizard, some twinking (4 points of refresh spent (evocation 3, refinement 1)
targeting 8 (discipline 5, +1 foci, +2 refinement), weapon 6 (conviction 4, +1 foci, +1 refinement)

10 refresh gunman (1 point of refresh spent, (gun targeting +1 stunt)
targeting 6 (guns 5 + targeting stunt), weapon 4 (anti-material rifle / grenade launcher (zone wide effect))
and if you'd allow a +1 gun damage stunt to give the gunman another way to sink refresh into guns.  Or he can just spend his spare refresh to up gun rolls during the adventure.

And, depending on how combat scenes tend to run, the metal stress limit of evocation can come up very quickly.

[Mr. Death]

The strength of mortal weaponry makes more sense if you consider that they're made to kill the average human. Not the optimized PC with four stress boxes, an extra mild consequence plus all the others to burn through, but the mook with only two stress boxes that the GM's not going to bother giving consequences for.

In that context, a Weapon:1 knife is going to turn a 2-shift roll difference into a kill.

[Sanctaphrax]

I guess powerwise, I'm aiming for Evokers to be on par with the guys with assault rifles on full auto.

Please don't. Assault rifles cost no Refresh, Evocation costs 3. Evocation should be better.

[AstronaughtAndy]

Please don't. Assault rifles cost no Refresh, Evocation costs 3. Evocation should be better.

Good point. To clarify, I meant in terms of single attacks. Certainly Evocation has the benefits of being the ultimate concealed weapon, and the maneuver possibilities are really only limited by the player's imagination.

Benign, I'm not sure any of my players will be going for full wizards, anyways. I think most of them are planning on single element superheroes of some kind or another.