Knights of Fae and the Wardens

[FishStampede]

If a character is the Knight of a Fae Court (and nothing else) are they bound by the Laws? That is, if they kill someone using Unseelie Spellcasting, do they take Lawbreaker? The only examples I can find where any flavor of sponsored magic coincides with Lawbreaker, the caster has either Thaumaturgy or Evocation as well.

Also, if a Warden gets word of it, would they be executed? Normally that wouldn't be an issue because even if they do take Lawbreaker, the Wardens would know better than to potentially anger one of the Fae Courts that recklessly. However, naturally one of my players is the Autumn Knight and doesn't entirely know where her spellcasting comes from. She could be easily mistaken for a focused practitioner or a sorcerer. I imagine application of the Sight would reveal her magic is "different," but just HOW different?

[Radecliffe]

A Fae Knight killing someone with magic might annoy the White Council but they wouldn't do anything about it.  Remember the Summer/Winter Knights are members of their respective Courts even though they are mortal.  The White Council is not going to tick off one of the Queens by trying to enforce Council Law on what is essentially a foreign national. 

If the character has "dual citizenship" that might be a grey area.  But my guess is they would still not take action. 

Edit:  In the case of an Autumn Knight I would still say the same.  I don't think you could be a Knight and not know where your power comes from.  You have to accept the job willingly to get the power in the first place.  Also, even though there is no canon Autumn Court if you create one in your World then it would stand to reason that the White Council in your world would be aware of it and any Fae Knight has the Marked By Power power so unless there is some plot device preventing it there should be no mystery about what the character is and who they serve. 

[FishStampede]

Actually, there is a plot device. A pretty big one. The Autumn Court is pretty well hidden from mortal and magical memory (we're still working out the details), but basically it involved a powerful working that caused them to disappear into the gaps between. They're still there and are even signatories of the Unseelie Accords (with a smudged, illegible signature), it's just any reference to them tends to become unclear. They've stayed out of things for a while now, and only now are starting to make waves because of perceived weakness in the main players.

In fitting with this, the character DID accept it, but only through faerie trickery. Long story short, she basically said "I wish!" in front of a genie. I don't think it's outside their standard modus operandi for the fae to take you at your literal word, even if you did not mean it or understand what you just agreed to. She was willing to write it off as something slipped in her drink or a bad fever. Until all the other weird stuff started happening.

And yep, even the Mark is frustratingly unclear. Mark of Power tells anyone who looks at the Knight "This person is claimed by *coughcough* and is a due representative of the interests of *muttered*. Treat them with all the respect you would *car alarm goes off*, or face the wrath of *look! A monkey!*"

I'm sure we'll fill in most of the details once we actually start play (we meet for city/character building tomorrow, I've just met with some players separately). I'm just wondering how the inevitable Council encounter would play out, whether it comes up in play or in character building.

[Radecliffe]

Well if the offender is not recognized as an emissary of a known signatory of the Accords my position would be that the Wardens would treat the him/her as a Warlock and lop their head off.  You can't claim diplomatic immunity if there is no diplomatic relations. 

[FishStampede]

I guess it really boils down to what Warden comes by to investigate, then. Harry wouldn't rest until he figured out what exactly was going on, Ramirez would probably just accept it at face value (especially if she's hot), and Morgan would do his best Butcher Pete impression. I suppose I'll just play it by ear if and when the situation comes up. I'll also advise the player (she's new to both the system and the books) that killing people may be a bad idea. I mean, it generally is under any circumstances, but this is a biggie.

[Becq]

I agree with Radecliffe.

It basically comes down to jurisdictional boundaries laid out by the Seelie Accords.  By default, the White Council claims jursdiction over all mortals who practice magic (or possibly everyone who practices magic).  However, as signatories to the Seelie Accords, all members of the Summer and Winter Court are protected by their Courts, Knights included.  If the White Council has problems with them, including their use of magic, then they have to demand satisfaction from the Knight's Court.  It's kind of like diplomatic immunity -- If a diplomat misbehaves in foreign country, that country can't prosecute them directly; they can at most eject them from the country and raise a diplomatic stink with the diplomat's country (possibly demanding considerations or punishment of some sort).  Recall

(click to show/hide)

the duel between Harry and the RCV

for an example of how this might play out.

In this case, if the Autumn Court is a recognized entity and signatory to the Seelie Accords, then the character is probably protected even if she doesn't know it.  If the Autumn Court is not recognized (which appears to be the case), then the character is in trouble.  Either she's a completely free agent (in which case she has no faction and is completely unprotected by the Seelie Accords), or she defaults to being under the White Council jurisdiction because they lay claim to all mortal practicioners (that aren't claimed by another recognized faction).  In either of these cases, the White Council can do with her as they will.

One possible mitigating factor is that her magic is almost certainly going to have a distinctive feel to it that the White Council would recognize as being different that what they use.  This might make her a subject worth investigating, rather than the normal warlock=headless situation.  This may in part depend on how badly she behaves.

[UmbraLux]

I agree with Radecliffe and Becq - the White Council would be very unlikely to act against the Knight or anyone Marked by Power.

My view of the Accords is that each signatory polices their own (or those claimed as their own).  This is one of the few things we really know about the Accords - there are penalties and fees for killing someone not associated with your group.  Denying those may lead to war. 

The WC claims jurisdiction over human magicians (whether they like it or not) but they don't claim jurisdiction over magic users whose magic is sourced from some Power.  Additionally, the wardens have the capability of Seeing an individual's power and/or power source.  Makes mistakes unlikely.

That said, if the Power behind the knight is not a signatory to the Accords the WC (probably not the warden unless he's a stubborn git) may choose to act and take the risk of irritating the sponsor.  Particularly if they think the sponsor is weak.  But that's not about enforcing WC Laws anymore, it's more about vengeance.

[Radecliffe]

...or anyone Marked by Power.

Only a slight quibble here.  There are lots of ways to be marked by power and not all of them good.  Isn't Harry Marked By Power due to his encounter with He Who Walks Behind?  That's less a "He's under my protection" mark and more a "I'm going to eat him later" mark. 

The WC claims jurisdiction over human magicians (whether they like it or not) but they don't claim jurisdiction over magic users whose magic is sourced from some Power.  Additionally, the wardens have the capability of Seeing an individual's power and/or power source.  Makes mistakes unlikely.

That said, if the Power behind the knight is not a signatory to the Accords the WC (probably not the warden unless he's a stubborn git) may choose to act and take the risk of irritating the sponsor.  Particularly if they think the sponsor is weak.  But that's not about enforcing WC Laws anymore, it's more about vengeance.

Wouldn't that depend on whether they Recognize the Power and what their relationship is with said Power?  For example, they won't hesitate smacking down a necromancer given the chance, nor would they ignore a caster powered by some demon (or worse, an Outsider.)  I think the WC is pretty aggressive about policing their turf and they aren't going to abide any users of unknown magic to run around breaking the Laws of Magic unless they are majorly distracted by something major like a war or an apocalypse or something along those lines. 

That said, I would have to say that even if the character did not know of his/her origins a Warden or Senior Council member should be able to recognize them for who they are.  The character isn't going to be able to remain ignorant for long anyway.  Sooner or later  his/her Queen is going to have a mission and the character isn't going to be of much use if Things Are Not Explained.   

[Richard_Chilton]

Are we talking about the laws that the Warden enforce or the laws in regards to the Lawbreaker power?

While the Wardens care about the Accords, politics, etc, the Lawbreaker power doesn't.  It's possible to be hunted by the Wardens without having earned that stunt and to have that stunt without the Wardens knowing about it.

My view? Any human with powers can get the Lawbreaker stunts.

Richard

[Becq]

I agree with Radecliffe and Becq

I agree completely!  :p

The WC claims jurisdiction over human magicians (whether they like it or not) but they don't claim jurisdiction over magic users whose magic is sourced from some Power.  Additionally, the wardens have the capability of Seeing an individual's power and/or power source.  Makes mistakes unlikely.

This I disagree with.  I think the WC claims jurisdiction over all human magicians except those "waived" by the Accords.  Or even more, all magicians human or otherwise, except those waived.  They might not be capable of exerting control over some, but they claim jurisdiction nonetheless.  Examples: Kemmlerian Necromancers.  Hellfire wielders.  Anyone gaining magical power through Outsiders.

Are we talking about the laws that the Warden enforce or the laws in regards to the Lawbreaker power?

Just the enforcement issue, I think.

One other thing: If the "Marked By Power" is not something that others can recognize, then it might make more sense to not have it.

[ways and means]

Actually the White Court are the guard dogs of mortal magic, mortal magic works entirely differently from most of the other magics (using a powerful entities massive amount of magic instead of your own magic) the reason that Kemlerian Magic and Outsider Sorcery count is that there is no way to access them without mortal magic (to reach beyond the veil and the gates respectively). A changeling using only seelie or unseliee magic would fall under the remit of their respective court, a mortal using a cities genus sponsored magic which wasn't accord would not be protected from the wardens but wouldn't fall under there remit so the first accorded supernatural that meets them could claim them and forestall the wardens attack.

 

[UmbraLux]

Only a slight quibble here.  There are lots of ways to be marked by power and not all of them good.  Isn't Harry Marked By Power due to his encounter with He Who Walks Behind?  That's less a "He's under my protection" mark and more a "I'm going to eat him later" mark. 

To clarify, I don't see them attempting to enforce WC laws against anyone Marked by a Power.  Not even if the power is He Who Walks Behind.  That doesn't mean they won't attempt to kill said individual out of vengeance, a desire to protect others, or some other reason.  The only thing preventing vengeance et al might be an Accord signatory or simply fear.

Wouldn't that depend on whether they Recognize the Power and what their relationship is with said Power? 

It shouldn't be too difficult to recognize they're not (just) a human mage (if a mage at all) - Marked by Power even makes that automatic.  The Sight makes gathering more information reasonably easy and is something which should (not necessarily will) be done before irrevocable action is taken.

Are we talking about the laws that the Warden enforce or the laws in regards to the Lawbreaker power?

I'm just talking about WC enforcement.

This I disagree with.  I think the WC claims jurisdiction over all human magicians except those "waived" by the Accords.  Or even more, all magicians human or otherwise, except those waived.  They might not be capable of exerting control over some, but they claim jurisdiction nonetheless.  Examples: Kemmlerian Necromancers.  Hellfire wielders.  Anyone gaining magical power through Outsiders.Just the enforcement issue, I think.

This may be a difference in definition - I don't consider solely sponsored magic users to be mages/sorcerers/wizards.  They're not using their own power, they're channeling someone else's.  Do note, that's my definition.  I'm not going to argue that you couldn't define them differently. 

[Becq]

Fair enough; replace the word 'magician' with 'magic user' or 'wielder of magic' or 'spellflinger'.  The Laws (at least as presented in the DFRPG) generally refer any time "magic is used to X".  And I don't think that the Wardens are going to distinguish much between a mortal who makes a pact with a demon, then uses Hellfire to fry someone or a self-taught mortal sorceror who uses Dresden-style magic to fry someone.  (Except perhaps in terms of danger assessment.)  If that someone got fried by Summerfire, then the situation is different, because anyone using Summerfire is very likely to be representing the Summer Court, a signatory to the Accords.  At least, that's my take on it.

[Tedronai]

Fair enough; replace the word 'magician' with 'magic user' or 'wielder of magic' or 'spellflinger'.  The Laws (at least as presented in the DFRPG) generally refer any time "magic is used to X".  And I don't think that the Wardens are going to distinguish much between a mortal who makes a pact with a demon, then uses Hellfire to fry someone or a self-taught mortal sorceror who uses Dresden-style magic to fry someone.  (Except perhaps in terms of danger assessment.)  If that someone got fried by Summerfire, then the situation is different, because anyone using Summerfire is very likely to be representing the Summer Court, a signatory to the Accords.  At least, that's my take on it.

Do recall that the Order of the Blackened Denarius is also signatory to the Accords, and would likely present the greater portion of originators of the use of Hellfire (ie. either the users of it themselves or the conduit by which the agreements are made that allow others to use it, thus making those others arguably representatives and underlings of the Denarians in the eyes of the Accords) outside of Downbelow.

[UmbraLux]

And I don't think that the Wardens are going to distinguish much between a mortal who makes a pact with a demon, then uses Hellfire to fry someone or a self-taught mortal sorceror who uses Dresden-style magic to fry someone. 

As long as the Accords aren't in play I provisionally agree some wizards will decide to take down the killer, sponsored or not.  I simply see it as an individual decision...in large part because I do not consider the White Council to be "good" or even looking out for the "good of mankind".  With a few notable exceptions they're in the game for power.  They police and defend human mages because of the Accords and to maintain a power base...not because they're nice guys.    

This is why we have divisions and betrayal within the White Council...they're in it for themselves.  There are exceptions of course, Harry being a notable one.