Author Topic: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?  (Read 66951 times)

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #75 on: October 22, 2012, 03:47:23 AM »
The protection seems kind of individualized--Thomas having sex with someone doesn't change the last person Justine had sex with, and that seems to be the deciding factor.

I think Jim mentioned that the protection has to do with the merging of life forces inherent in the intimacy of the act that grants the protection, and the last person you 'merged' with is the one that counts.
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Offline Aminar

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #76 on: November 08, 2012, 03:34:06 PM »
Quote
I took off my coat and looked around the lab until I located my clawhammer. I picked it up.
Bob's voice gained a hurried, stammering edge. "And while I know that wasn't exactly the mission you
sent me out on, you have to admit that it was really quite a noble purpose that totally supported your
quest to preserve life."
I took a practice swing with the hammer. I took my duster off, folded it, laid it over the table, and tried
again. Much better. I fixed a murderous gaze on the skull on the shelf.
Found this while listening to the Blood Rites audio book.
Follow Harry's coat.  It does some odd and silly things like teleport back onto him.  And as I told Serack, people don't wear multiple coats if they want to move their arms.  And with all the fights Harry gets in...

Offline Serack

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #77 on: November 08, 2012, 06:03:50 PM »
Being a natural born Floridian, the subtleties of layered winter clothing necessary for living in a place like Chicago are rather abstract to me, but it certainly looks like that sequence of events included some implausible redundancies. 

I added a link to your post that goes like this:

The repeated coat removal coat removal
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 06:06:59 PM by Serack »
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Offline Eleyctra

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2012, 12:25:52 AM »
Being a natural born Floridian, the subtleties of layered winter clothing necessary for living in a place like Chicago are rather abstract to me, but it certainly looks like that sequence of events included some implausible redundancies. 

I added a link to your post that goes like this:

The repeated coat removal coat removal

Darn you Serack! I clicked your link and became confused. Then I clicked again and again. Then I realized what you did... -.-
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Offline Serack

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2012, 11:03:28 AM »
lol, was just showing off what I added to the OP to give some evidence of inclusion to Aminar in case it was too buried to easily notice.  Kind of an "update" post.

By the way, thanks to Ms Duck I know how to make links that open within the page rather than opening a new one... I might edit all those links to do that...
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Offline RobReece

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #80 on: November 16, 2012, 10:15:47 PM »
I've been trying to ask a question or maybe a possible discrepancy... In PG, When Harry goes to pick up Molly and then on to Michaels house, Mouse is with him.  When Murphy takes him home after the phobphage attack, she lets him out early so he can walk Mouse.  But where is mouse when Harry is at the convention that first day?

Offline Serack

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Apparent NN Gateway contradiction/discontinuity [Series spoilers]
« Reply #81 on: July 12, 2013, 01:28:06 PM »
Ok, it was brought up in another topic how this quote:

Quote from: WN Ch 39
Gates to the spirit world paid absolutely no attention to trivial things like geography - they obeyed laws of imagination, intention, patterned thought.  Even if Cowl was back there, he wouldn't be able to open a gate to the same place as mine, because he didn't think like me, feel like me, or share my intent and purpose.

Seems to contradict several other experiences in the Dresden Files.  In the spirit of trying to provide material for the X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy? reference thread in the DFRC I thought I might dedicate a topic to this to gather contrary passages, and then the reference can link to this topic as the resource for the possible "discrepancy"

Passages where a wizard expects to/manages to open a portal to the same place a different wizard did:
  • Turn Coat
    • The gateway that opens "a couple long steps from a way in the NN" from the back of Harry's storage rental hideout.  Harry expects Morgan to be able to instruct Molly to open it without experience.
    • The way from Chicago to Edenburg is used by several wizards, and Harry describes being able to find it because of the thinness there from previous use.
  • Changes
    • Every time Harry opens a portal using his Mother's instructions
    • Heck, what about Harry's basement?   You've got to assume that anyone stepping into the NN from there had to run into Lea's garden, otherwise what's the point?  How about Corpsetaker's NN defences?  If a portal opens to a different place depending on which wizard opens it, how can you ever have a single point of defence?

It is possible that this apparent "discrepancy" could be bridged by the fact that the wizards in question did in fact share "intent and purpose"
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 01:50:14 PM by Serack »
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Offline Phaeton Seraph

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Re: Apparent NN Gateway contradiction/discontinuity [Series spoilers
« Reply #82 on: July 12, 2013, 01:57:51 PM »
Presumably, some Ways, or parts thereof are "fixed".   So certain intersections or nexuses  would always be the same.  Like the the portal Harry and others use to get to Edinburgh.  Perhaps enough Wizards have chosen those points that a patterned consensual thought has fixed them in place.  And possibly some are less fixed, but not too far off because the mortal world and the NN are too closely paired at those locations to be otherwise.

As for the less firmly fixed points, or making a portal in some random location, the two other instances you mention for Molly and Margaret and Harry:
Harry and his mother have a genetic connection, we could argue that he might have a tendency to think in a similar way.  More importantly, by listening to her memories via the pendant and following her directions, imagination, intention and patterned thought have been guided to be the same.

Molly is Harry's student.  As a great deal of magic is based on imagination (and will), Molly's imagination and patterns of thinking will be similar to Harry's because she has been learning to use hers from Harry so there will be similarity.   Additionally, Harry said the location was near to a Way.  Ways are fairly fixed.  They're like NN King's road's.  They're well established. 


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Offline UncommonSense

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Re: Apparent NN Gateway contradiction/discontinuity [Series spoilers]
« Reply #83 on: July 12, 2013, 02:00:03 PM »
I feel like there are set doors and paths that can be used on a (semi)consistent basis.  Which would explain how Harry's mother's ruby can impart that kind of knowledge.  Gatekeeper alludes to something similar in CD:

Quote
      "Those of us who spend any amount of time walking the Ways tend to develop a certain
amount of camaraderie.  We would have dinner every so often, compare notes of our walks."...

That's why when Harry pops through a specific alley wall, he gets to Edinburgh.  But, like you said, if he randomly opens a way then all bets are off.  Also, I thought I remember reading in one of the books some character stating that the ways change over time?  Maybe I'm misremembering or thinking of a different series.
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Offline robertltux

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Re: Apparent NN Gateway contradiction/discontinuity [Series spoilers]
« Reply #84 on: July 12, 2013, 02:32:07 PM »
[invoke: Charlie Epps] The pattern of the ways is partly will and partly %hideously complex number theory%. Maggie senior figured out the Metacalculus so she could correct the 11 dimensional geometry...

Ways are created when hundreds/thousands of wizards/things have Intent close enough to Burn/Crease the Transtemporal Fabric (or one Wizard can see an existing "crease").
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Apparent NN Gateway contradiction/discontinuity [Series spoilers]
« Reply #85 on: July 12, 2013, 02:41:17 PM »
Also, don't forget that some inconsistencies can be attributed to Harry just being wrong.  His understanding of moving between our world and the NN early on may have been in err.  He's had a lot more experience at it now, and he has a "map" in the ruby his mother left him.

Actually, I'm thinking it's kind of a combination of both fixed and fluid.  The fixed are based on experience, and the fluid are much more influenced by imagination, desire, and intent.
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Offline knnn

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Re: Apparent NN Gateway contradiction/discontinuity [Series spoilers]
« Reply #86 on: July 12, 2013, 03:24:23 PM »
Other examples:

- In SmF, Nico says that Harry shouldn't try running to the NN from Demonreach because of what is on the other side.  How does he know where Harry will open a portal to?  Possibly because maybe "all roads lead to ruin" from there.

- In CD, Harry threatens to open a portal to the RW to kill a Sidhe.  Potentially, he could have done that back in PG to escape At instead of trudging back to the place Lily was holding open.  Answer is maybe it takes a "lot" of power to open a portal in At.

- Similarly, how about the portal that the Fetches used?  Harry seemed to believe he'd end up at the same place without problems.

- Ditto following into the ghost demesne back in Grave Peril.
 
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Offline redwizard

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Re: Apparent NN Gateway contradiction/discontinuity [Series spoilers]
« Reply #87 on: July 12, 2013, 07:30:58 PM »
The NN appears to function in two ways, at least with regards to opening Ways.
The first is the standard fixed point where two geographic locations are linked, i.e. the shed in Chicago and the one at the White Council headquarters. These are so easy even a caveman could do it.  They are also the most common ones.

The second, is the type described by the quote in the first post in this thread. They are what I think of as directed Ways. They depend on all of the qualities Harry mentioned as well as a significant investment of will. The one opened to CI for the Grey Council, the one Mab opened to send Harry back in Cold Days (this one took a large amount of power as well), and the one sending the raiding party back from CI to Chicago as well. I would also think when a summoning happens a direct way is used.

I don't see it as much a discontinuity as a plot device. Just think of it as when a wizard reaches a certain point they have access to the DF version of a transporter.
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Offline Phaeton Seraph

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Re: Apparent NN Gateway contradiction/discontinuity [Series spoilers]
« Reply #88 on: July 13, 2013, 01:24:35 AM »
I feel like there are set doors and paths that can be used on a (semi)consistent basis.  Which would explain how Harry's mother's ruby can impart that kind of knowledge.  Gatekeeper alludes to something similar in CD:

That's why when Harry pops through a specific alley wall, he gets to Edinburgh.  But, like you said, if he randomly opens a way then all bets are off.  Also, I thought I remember reading in one of the books some character stating that the ways change over time?  Maybe I'm misremembering or thinking of a different series.

Of course the Ways change over time, the mortal world does too.  If you pave paradise to put up a parking lot, the park or empty lot no longer has a connection with what it used to be connected to.   If a bad neighbourhood is gentrified, then the neighbourhood will lose its kinship with a dangerous part of of the NN.  Likewise if a nice area becomes run down, or seedy.


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Offline wyltok

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Re: Apparent NN Gateway contradiction/discontinuity [Series spoilers]
« Reply #89 on: July 13, 2013, 05:31:26 PM »
I've always felt that when it comes to entering the Never Never, there's gates and then there's Ways. From how they are used, it appears that Ways behave differently from Gates in that an established Way works the same for everyone, whereas a Gate is trickier.

When it comes to defending his house from Never Never incursions, it seems Harry's method was to try to avoid making his house the exit of a Way. Instead, he seems to have relied on the inherent instability of Gates (this could be one possible explanation for why Harry's place lead to different Never Never locations in Grave Peril and Changes) to make it harder for his enemies to attack him (since they would have to spend the effort to find out what new spot in the Never Never corresponded to Harry's house at the time of their attack).

Meanwhile, both Lea and Corpsetaker appear to have relied on the opposite strategy: turn the Never Never side into a Way, and fortify it as much as possible. Harry's hideout appears to be a compromise: since he's hardly ever there, he deemed it better to have a stable Way that lead to one of the safe paths through Winter used by the Council.

Of course, just because Gates are not as stable as Ways, that doesn't mean that one cannot find a path to their target in the real world. Both Thomas and Cowl accomplished it in White Night. I suggest that both followed a similar method, namely, using a tracking spell on someone on the Real World to lead them.

I've always considered Proven Guilty a good example of a story with both Gates and Ways. The closed cinema theater was a Way that always lead to a spot close to Artic Tor. Meanwhile, the mirrors used by the fetches in their other attacks are merely Gates, which means that when they escape into the Never Never, it's harder for other people to follow them.

The question is, what turns a Gate into a Way? We don't know for sure, but I would offer this: it shouldn't be that hard for the same beings that opens a gate in the same place in the real world (or vice-versa) to end up at the same location in the Never Never (or vice-versa) every time. Do it often enough, and you weaken the barrier between the Never Never and the real world (this is how Harry describes it in Changes) and a Way is made. This could explain why Harry managed to open the same Way she did, since I think it's fair to say Harry was more in common with Cowl than with Agatha.

P.S. I suspect that Fae can discern from the real world the type of place a Gate (or a Way) will open to. It's something we see Lily do in White Night, and it's the only thing that would explain why Tiny the Gruff (considering how injured he was) would dare jump into the Never Never from the train station in Turn Coat without being worried about reaching the same place in the Never Never as the hobs.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 05:36:24 PM by wyltok »
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