Limiting Angel summoning

[Mr. Death]

PCs generally act like real people. The Compel system makes it mechanically optimal for them to do so, and even without Compels most people try to make their characters into believable people.

Most real people would rather not be in prison, regardless of what they have to do outside.

Most real people would rather not be in prison, yes. But that doesn't mean most real people are going to try and escape. Escaping gets you into more trouble, regardless of how it's done, because the bottom line is: By the legal system, you're supposed to be in jail. And you're not.

Ergo, most people would just serve the sentence (and try and get out sooner through legal means) unless either A. getting out that way was impossible, or B. they had some pressing reason to be out sooner than that would allow.

Judge: So do have anything to say for yourself?
PC: I didn't escape, they said I could go.
Police: No.
PC: Umm... yes you did, just check any tape ever.
Police: Yeah, see your teleporting out a magic portal right here.
PC: ... You faked a video tape. ... You guys are morons.
Judge: Okay, PC you're free to go. Police I'm going to have to send you guys to prison.

Yeah, Becq is 100% correct here, and that is an absurd misunderstanding of the legal system. When you're released from jail, there is paperwork. Lots, and lots, and lots of paperwork. That's what the judge is going to look at, not the prisoner saying, "They said I could go." That's just not how the legal system--any legal system--works.

[Richard_Chilton]

Most real people would rather not be in prison, yes. But that doesn't mean most real people are going to try and escape. Escaping gets you into more trouble, regardless of how it's done, because the bottom line is: By the legal system, you're supposed to be in jail. And you're not.

Ergo, most people would just serve the sentence (and try and get out sooner through legal means) unless either A. getting out that way was impossible, or B. they had some pressing reason to be out sooner than that would allow.

That's a call that every imprisoned person would have to make.  The thing is, the average lacks the means to escape.  Which is why it's call a prison - it imprisons people. 

Would the average man escape from jail when he's being held 72 hours for questioning? Most wouldn't; three days isn't worth a lifetime on the run.  There are exceptions - Harry dodges the cops in Changes because he could afford to waste a single hour in jail - but most people wouldn't break jail over a few days.

If you're facing life, or a sentence like 523 years, then what does a wizard have to lose? Sure, you have to go underground, give up your old life, never contact any of your friends again, and maybe change the way you look - but if you're facing life then you've already lost the chance to live a normal life.  Faced with that, I can see virtually every wizard trying to escape.  Especially if (as a wizard) you could serve a big chunk of 523 year sentence.

Between those extremes, it's a judgement call that each wizard would have to make.

And because a wizard has a choice, that could be a series of decisions.  Personally, I don't think I could do years in prison if I knew I could leave at anytime.  No, I can't imagine dealing the boredom, the violence, the gangs, and the rest and deciding every day that "No, I won[t magically escape today".

Sure wizards can take the long view (5 years is a smaller percentage of a wizard's life than a normal view), but could one take the boredom of serving hard time? I doubt it.

Richard

[Sanctaphrax]

Personally, I don't think I could do years in prison if I knew I could leave at anytime.  No, I can't imagine dealing the boredom, the violence, the gangs, and the rest and deciding every day that "No, I won[t magically escape today".

Yeah, it would take a very special wizard to voluntarily not escape prison.

PS: Wizards would have a pretty easy time evading the police. They already live partly outside of normal society, and they have access to out-of-context tools to boot. Plus, I expect the White Council would be happy to provide asylum for most wizard convicts. I doubt that they much like it when mortals try to boss around and imprison their own.

[Becq]

I agree -- a wizard's best bet lies in avoiding arrest in the first place, and often has plenty of tools at his disposal for doing so.  Once he's actually in jail, however, options diminish significantly.  I'm not entirely convinced that a wizard acting alone could reasonably escape from most prisons, magic or no.  At least not based on the novels (though the DFRPG leaves big holes in the guidelines as to what can be done).

* The most obvious out, teleportation, does not seem to exist, at least in the way we think of it.
* The next closest analogue -- "escaping" to the Nevernever -- should be nothing less than suicidal.  There are plenty of creatures of the Nevernever that feed on human misery and other (primarily negative) emotions, which should make the portions of the Nevernever adjacent to prisons akin to a cafeteria.
* A wizard has quite a lot of evocation-based firepower available.  But probably not enough to kill/disable every warden in the prison before collapsing (Lawbreaking issues aside).
* A wizard has quite a lot of thaumaturgy-based capabilities available -- assuming he has enough preparation time.  However, this is reduced considerably without access to the many ritual items the wizard is accustomed to using to build his constructs.  I would also assume that the authorities would look askance at elaborate ritual preparations being conducted in a cell.

I suppose that option most likely to produce results would be mind magic -- just convince the higher-ups to order your release (or convince the guards transferring you to prison to drop you off at home, instead), then to forget it happened.  This, of course, is quite definitely Lawbreaking, as are the more violent options in the list above.  Which means that you still have the problem of not having been legally released, meaning you are now an escaped convict on the run.  And on top of that, there will almost certainly be some friendly White Council representatives who have heard of the incident and are eager to make your acquiantance.  Briefly.

If you take away the "working alone" proviso, more options open up, but the most likely of them don't involve magic.  For example, if the wizard was in good standing with the White Council, it's entirely possible that they could arrange for the right strings to be pulled to get him off scot-free.  Variations of this might involve the local equivalent of Marcone buying off the D.A. or some such.

That's my impression based on the way magic is treated in the novels.  The DFRPG, of course, leaves huge openings available for what some of us would consider "abuse", while others would consider creative yet entirely legitimate applications of the RAW.

[Tedronai]

* The next closest analogue -- "escaping" to the Nevernever --

The closest analogue can actually be seen in Storm Front in Harry and Susan's escape from the demon.  It would be quite sufficient to escape from most minimum security prisons and some few medium security prisons.  It is likely insufficient to escape from the vast majority of maximum security prisons.

* A wizard has quite a lot of evocation-based firepower available.  But probably not enough to kill/disable every warden in the prison before collapsing (Lawbreaking issues aside).

A wizard would be an imbecile to go hunting down every guard in the prison rather than just blasting the ones along the shortest path (as the crow flies) to the outside
('steel-reinforced concrete walls?  what walls?')

* A wizard has quite a lot of thaumaturgy-based capabilities available -- assuming he has enough preparation time.  However, this is reduced considerably without access to the many ritual items the wizard is accustomed to using to build his constructs.  I would also assume that the authorities would look askance at elaborate ritual preparations being conducted in a cell.

Yes, the authorities are quite likely to 'look askance' at those elaborate and harmless religious ritual preparations that the prisoner is by all means permitted to perform under international law, and crowds of local and international NGOs will line up outside the prison to ensure that those authorities take not a single step past 'looking askance', once they get wind of it.

If you take away the "working alone" proviso, more options open up, but the most likely of them don't involve magic.

The enterprising sorcerer will not turn down the assistance of his (likely clueless but nevertheless useful) cell mate, or other prison acquaintances should the opportunity arise, in powering a ritual to free him from those foul walls.

[Richard_Chilton]

There's an easier way out jail - veil.  Do a good job and no one notices you as you follow a guard out of the prison and walk away from the parking lot.

If Dresden (in his "I can't really veil" phase) could get into the police lock up with one, then a wizard could walk out of prison without anyone noticing.

Richard

[ways and means]

I agree -- a wizard's best bet lies in avoiding arrest in the first place, and often has plenty of tools at his disposal for doing so.  Once he's actually in jail, however, options diminish significantly.  I'm not entirely convinced that a wizard acting alone could reasonably escape from most prisons, magic or no.  At least not based on the novels (though the DFRPG leaves big holes in the guidelines as to what can be done).

* The most obvious out, teleportation, does not seem to exist, at least in the way we think of it.
* The next closest analogue -- "escaping" to the Nevernever -- should be nothing less than suicidal.  There are plenty of creatures of the Nevernever that feed on human misery and other (primarily negative) emotions, which should make the portions of the Nevernever adjacent to prisons akin to a cafeteria.
* A wizard has quite a lot of evocation-based firepower available.  But probably not enough to kill/disable every warden in the prison before collapsing (Lawbreaking issues aside).
* A wizard has quite a lot of thaumaturgy-based capabilities available -- assuming he has enough preparation time.  However, this is reduced considerably without access to the many ritual items the wizard is accustomed to using to build his constructs.  I would also assume that the authorities would look askance at elaborate ritual preparations being conducted in a cell.

I suppose that option most likely to produce results would be mind magic -- just convince the higher-ups to order your release (or convince the guards transferring you to prison to drop you off at home, instead), then to forget it happened.  This, of course, is quite definitely Lawbreaking, as are the more violent options in the list above.  Which means that you still have the problem of not having been legally released, meaning you are now an escaped convict on the run.  And on top of that, there will almost certainly be some friendly White Council representatives who have heard of the incident and are eager to make your acquiantance.  Briefly.

If you take away the "working alone" proviso, more options open up, but the most likely of them don't involve magic.  For example, if the wizard was in good standing with the White Council, it's entirely possible that they could arrange for the right strings to be pulled to get him off scot-free.  Variations of this might involve the local equivalent of Marcone buying off the D.A. or some such.

That's my impression based on the way magic is treated in the novels.  The DFRPG, of course, leaves huge openings available for what some of us would consider "abuse", while others would consider creative yet entirely legitimate applications of the RAW.

Wizard puts up a veil and walks out.

[Mr. Death]

Harry got into it using a high-powered potion that he needed an immortal spirit of intellect, and several components that no doubt needed time and effort to acquire, to create.

All stuff he wouldn't have access to if he was locked up.

Wizard puts up a veil and walks out.

Who's opening all the doors for him? How long does the veil have to last? How much power can the wizard hold up? What happens if the route takes him by the running water of the showers?

For my money, evocation is the quickest, provided you've got a room bordering the exterior of the building. Blow out the wall and make a run for it.

[Tedronai]

Harry got into it using a high-powered potion that he needed an immortal spirit of intellect, and several components that no doubt needed time and effort to acquire, to create.

A) Harry's potions are not particularly 'high-powered' if we are to put any faith in his OW writeup.
B) Harry made use of Bob's assistance because that's what Harry does.  Other wizards have other sources of knowledge.  Or just have a half-decent understanding of magical theory in their own right.
C) The materials necessary for an effective potion vary not only with the desired effects, but with the one creating it.  A potion made by Eb will have different ingredients than one made by Harry, even if they both do the exact same thing.
D) For someone with full thaumaturgy (or any casting power other than ritual:crafting), potions are only a way to create portable versions of effects that you would be able to create yourself by other means.  They do not provide access to effects that would otherwise be unavailable to you.  If you're performing a ritual to immediately gain the effects shown in that potion, your methods (and required materials) will almost certainly be different.

For my money, evocation is the quickest, provided you've got a room bordering the exterior of the building. Blow out the wall and make a run for it.

Quickest? Probably.
Most reliable and least likely to result in you getting shot by a high-powered rifle or a shotgun?  Substantially less so.

[Mr. Death]

A) Harry's potions are not particularly 'high-powered' if we are to put any faith in his OW writeup.

Ah, but don't forget he can spend fate points to directly boost a potion's strength. I imagine that's what he did there.

B) Harry made use of Bob's assistance because that's what Harry does.  Other wizards have other sources of knowledge.  Or just have a half-decent understanding of magical theory in their own right.
C) The materials necessary for an effective potion vary not only with the desired effects, but with the one creating it.  A potion made by Eb will have different ingredients than one made by Harry, even if they both do the exact same thing.

Yes, but they'd still be forced out of their regular working area, with no access to their usual materials that they would have expected to work with.

I consider myself a fairly good cook. If you plopped me down in my own kitchen, I could make a pretty tasty meal off the top of my head without consulting a cook book. But I couldn't do so after being plunked into an empty concrete cage and stripped of most everything I'd normally use to cook. At best, I'd be able to make something edible, but bland. At worst, hello salmonella!

If nothing else, I'd say being imprisoned properly would be grounds for severe compels, higher difficulties for attaining spell components, etc.

Quickest? Probably.
Most reliable and least likely to result in you getting shot by a high-powered rifle or a shotgun?  Substantially less so.

Well, yeah. I never said it was a perfect plan.

[Richard_Chilton]

Who's opening all the doors for him? How long does the veil have to last? How much power can the wizard hold up? What happens if the route takes him by the running water of the showers?

Follow a guard as he makes his rounds - at least until you are out of the prisoner area.  If the guard you are following heads to the showers, then follow a different employee out the front door.

How long? If you time it around shift change you're looking at maybe a couple of hours at most.  As for how powerful a wizard he is, that depends on the wizard.

If you're lucky and time it around shift changes and headcounts, you could be out for hours before anyone knows you're gone.  Which means you have a chance to get out of the area before the manhunt starts.

For my money, evocation is the quickest, provided you've got a room bordering the exterior of the building. Blow out the wall and make a run for it.

Guards tend to notice it when people blow up part of the prison - whether it's with explosives or magic.  Any "busting out with force" attempt is very likely to share an end AC/DC's song "Jail Break"
Heartbeats / they were racin'
Freedom / he was chasin'
Spotlights, sirens, rifles firing
But he made it out
With a bullet in his back

Not to mention the roadblocks and manhunt as they lock down the area where the terrorist escaped from prison.  And if the wizard wasn't seen as terrorist before - well he just blew a hole in a prison, which makes him a terrorist.


Of course this is all based on the prisoner being a Wizard with full thaum and evocation.  If he only has rituals or channeling then it would be much harder for him to make it out.  For example, I can't see Mort breaking out of jail with his magic.

Richard

[ways and means]

For your really swave sophisticated wizards you blow a whole in the wall and then veil, getting the best of both worlds or if you are really sneaky you veil, you sustain that veil, you blow a whole in the wall, you walk out whilst still veiled, leaving the prison authorities to wonder how they developed a sudden whole in their walls. 

[Tedronai]

I consider myself a fairly good cook. If you plopped me down in my own kitchen, I could make a pretty tasty meal off the top of my head without consulting a cook book. But I couldn't do so after being plunked into an empty concrete cage and stripped of most everything I'd normally use to cook. At best, I'd be able to make something edible, but bland. At worst, hello salmonella!

If nothing else, I'd say being imprisoned properly would be grounds for severe compels, higher difficulties for attaining spell components, etc.

Prison cells, even solitary confinement cells, are not empty concrete boxes, and it doesn't take much in the way of equipment or materials to be able to mark formulaic inscriptions on the walls and floor.  It may take you longer than it would in your own fully stocked lab (hello compels and accompanying FP) but if all else fails, you're in prison: you have the perfect excuse to finally make use of that 'sit out a scene' option.
And if they muck up your inscriptions while you're working, file a formal complaint with the local human rights board / NGO that concerns themselves with the protection of freedom of religion, and start over.  You've got nothing but time.

[Mr. Death]

You've got nothing but time.

Unless, as was suggested earlier, you have some pressing reason not to sit in prison for months or years while the bureaucracy sorts things out.

And while they may not be completely bare, there is a hard limit on what you're going to be able to bring in there, particularly the types of things.

[Richard_Chilton]

In the DV, if you are able to work then all you need is your Will.

Want to summon an Archangel to your prison cell to complain about the prison chaplain? Then imagine a circle of summoning, invest that mental image with your Will, and (if it fits in with his boss' Plan) the archangel will arrive.

No drawing a real circle.
No anything that is normally involved in casting magic.
Just your Will.

In game terms you take a lot of compels of "You're in prison" then spend those FATE chips.  Or you scratch mystic symbols on your skin (giving you an Aspect to tap), write on the walls with your own blood and body secretions (giving you another Aspect to tap), navel gaze as you remember the Lore your master taught you (giving you another Aspect to tap) and so on until you've got the prep work for a major veil (one with a long duration).  Then when they bring you your food (or come back for your tray) and see that you're not there they open the door your solitary confinement room and then you slowly make your way out of the prison.  Call it a day's duration and it should work.

Richard