Extremely High Complexity Rituals

[UmbraLux]

You came here to tell ways and means (and me) that what we're doing is meaningless. Not that you wouldn't use it in your games. So the way you play doesn't matter.

Wow.  Wrong, but not sure there's much point left in conversation.

[Sanctaphrax]

Wrong how?

You said

I tend to think this type of thing is meaningless...

[UmbraLux]

Wrong how?

I stated a personal opinion*, followed it with why that's my opinion (numbers get too large), and then tried to help come up with 'back of the napkin' numbers (lots of zones, ~100k officers). 

Believe it or not, it was an attempt to help. 

*I can't see ever running a million shift ritual.  Not even going to run a 100k shift ritual and kind of doubt I'll ever even get to 1k.  So yes, for gaming purposes those numbers are meaningless to me.  It's not the kind of game I'm playing.

[Jimmy]

I was wondering how high the complexity people would give plot device rituals?

Lets not get carried away by our ego's and ruin a perfectly good discussion on methods of story telling (which is what DFRPG is about, I remind you). As above the OP was asking people's opinions on creating plot device rituals. The key words we're working with are Ritual and Plot Device.

One side is detailing how they would handle a high complexity Ritual. The other is detailing how they would handle a Plot Device.

They don't have to be mutually exclusive, but they can be. There's no right or wrong way to handle it, and it really is a context sensitive process. Is the ritual meant to be interacted with using numbers and rules to allow a relatively powerful PC to shine in his spellcraft epeen? Is it meant to be a party effort to combat an evil wizard enacting his Big Plan?

If the latter, there's no real point in working out all the details this way as there's not much of a story in rolling playing it, rather than role playing it. If the former, it makes a great way for a hero to bat aside the feeble evil sorcerer's magicks so the rest of the party can stick a knife in him and end his Big Plan. It can be run as both too, to counter spell it would require massive amounts of complexity shifts as well, this too can be the source of some great story ideas.

This should just be a discussion on how YOU would handle it, not how WE should handle it. GMs are allowed to bend the rules, or ignore them outright, if it means getting a good story. Some of the best games I've had (played or run) always involved elements that weren't  covered by a set of rules.

[Sanctaphrax]

I stated a personal opinion...

Didn't sound like an opinion to me.

That aside, I find things like

...(which is what DFRPG is about, I remind you)...

mildly annoying. It's stating a One True Way to play, and it's doing it without seeming to notice.

Regardless of what you mean scene X to be about, your players are liable to completely disregard that. So even if your "plot device" is not intended to be interacted with according to the rules, you'll sometimes need stats for when people don't follow your plot.

Fortunately, making up stats is really easy in this game.

[Jimmy]

Oh, I noticed. I noticed a lot of other things too, which seems to just prove my point. Which was you can have all these rules debates without the personal jibes and snide remarks everyone is throwing about, debunking others opinions or interpretations as foolish, and generally trying to show everyone who has the bigger epeen. That last comment, for example would be far more constructive if you simply started with 'Regardless of what you mean scene X etc' and leave the previous comments to yourself you'll find the thread stays on topic more and the discussion stays helpful and informative. Which is why a lot of us come here to read for. It's not cool to have to wade through lines of fluff to find the real content.

PS Not just having a go at you Sanct, most of the regular posters seem to be guilty of this.

[Sanctaphrax]

Don't worry about having a go at me, I have a thick skin.

That said, I can assure you that I'm not trying to show off here. This is just my personality. I'm rarely intentionally rude, but I'm pretty blunt. And I've got self-confidence to spare.

PS: I like the posters here. Maybe it's aforementioned thick skin, but I rarely feel as though they're snarking at me. And I haven't seen much ego.

As for debunking other people's opinions, that's an important part of what a forum is for. Or at least, it's an important part of what I'm here for. If people weren't willing to take apart my arguments, I'm not going to learn much.

[Richard_Chilton]

Here's an example of a plot device, but first I'll set the scene:
Following a numerous compels on one PC's HC (Special Investigations Lead Detective) and Trouble (Unbelieving Bureaucracy) over several chapters and another PC's habit of mouthing off to the police, there's a major reaction from the police.  There practically has to be - things (including of the long running themes) have been building and building and if nothing happens now then there's a huge plausibility gap if nothing huge happens.  The group is currently split, taking care of different things, and the GM has the PC who's a police officer make a contacts roll.

The net result is the PC who's a police officer calls another PC and says: "They're pinning this whole mess on you.  You can expect the tactical unit, SWAT, the FBI, Homeland Security, and maybe a hundred local cops to come to your door as soon as they get their warrants.  You've got maybe an hour.".

The raid - it's a plot device.  There's no way to stop it.  There's no effective way to fight it.  A small army of heavily armed, nervous people are going to show up and if the PCs try to fight then it's the battle of the Alamo or Butch Cassidy's last stand.  Even if you can take out fifty or sixty goons the others will fill you full of led and they will be shooting to kill - especially if "officer down" has been called.  With that many people involved, any PC who's there when the raid happens is going to go quietly or in a blaze of glory.

So the question is, how do the PCs react to the raid? Do they run, go underground, hide out, veil and watch the operation, use this as a distraction to hit another target, have sniper positioned to take out officer Rat Face (long standing NPC who's behind the raid), or do they do something else?

And a complication - if they run and leave the apartment like it is, the lab boys will find all sorts of evidence of weird stuff, enough to keep the investigation going for weeks (or months) but if there's no evidence the investigation will eventual peter out - so there would be no need for everyone to get fake IDs and move to another city.

How many cops are involved in the raid and how preciously are they armed? That's irrelevant - they have enough to gack anyone who resists arrest.  That's why the raid is a plot as opposed to a balanced encounter.

Richard

[Sanctaphrax]

That example doesn't hold up, Richard.

First, because some people might want to fight the police. And some people might win. Depending on how the police army is written up, one of the PCs in the PbP I GM might be able to take them all out with one spell.

(Evocation area attacks are incredibly good.)

If anyone's even going to try, than stats will be needed. And if your players want to try, then you can't really stop them. Railroading is hard, after all.

Second, because stats aren't just about combat. Suppose I decide to hide under a veil. What kind of Alertness do the cops have? If you don't give stats to the cops, then there's no way for anyone to try hiding from them or talking them into not attacking or whatever within the rules.

[Mr. Death]

That example doesn't hold up, Richard.

First, because some people might want to fight the police. And some people might win. Depending on how the police army is written up, one of the PCs in the PbP I GM might be able to take them all out with one spell.
(Evocation area attacks are incredibly good.)

And then what?

I think that's a more pertinent point than whether it's possible to fight the cops and win. One person curbstomps dozens of highly trained police officers and...the local authorities just give up? People tend to react when what amounts to a major battle breaks out and one person ends up winning it single-handedly. You'd get all kinds of unwanted attention, for a start.

Second, because stats aren't just about combat. Suppose I decide to hide under a veil. What kind of Alertness do the cops have? If you don't give stats to the cops, then there's no way for anyone to try hiding from them or talking them into not attacking or whatever within the rules.

This I agree with, though. The cops should have stats because you don't know how the players will react to the scenario.

[Tedronai]

And then what?

I think that's a more pertinent point than whether it's possible to fight the cops and win. One person curbstomps dozens of highly trained police officers and...the local authorities just give up? People tend to react when what amounts to a major battle breaks out and one person ends up winning it single-handedly. You'd get all kinds of unwanted attention, for a start.

So, you've managed to defeat the Youngest Gruff, have you?
When one person curbstomps a Gruff, do their Brothers just give up?
...

[Richard_Chilton]

That example doesn't hold up, Richard.

It does.

You might not like plot devices, but they work.

First, because some people might want to fight the police. And some people might win. Depending on how the police army is written up, one of the PCs in the PbP I GM might be able to take them all out with one spell.

Take out hundreds of people in front of the house, behind the house, on both sides of the house, down the street from the house, an in the mobile command centre? With one spell?

I'd love to see the math on that one.

If anyone's even going to try, than stats will be needed. And if your players want to try, then you can't really stop them. Railroading is hard, after all.

I'm sorry, I forgot that DFRPG is the game without consequences.  Where after numerous compels on one PC's HC (Special Investigations Lead Detective) and Trouble (Unbelieving Bureaucracy) over several chapters and another PC's habit of mouthing off to the police - nothing happens.  The police ignore the PCs' actions entirely.

Or to put it another way, if there is railroading going on in that example it's because the PCs building the railroad and chartered a train.

Now if the example had read "The GM decides that the PCs should do a jailbreak session because of a movie he just saw and sends in the cops to arrest them all" then that would be railroading - but ignoring the results of the PCs' actions can be worse for a game than railroading them into a scene.

Second, because stats aren't just about combat. Suppose I decide to hide under a veil. What kind of Alertness do the cops have? If you don't give stats to the cops, then there's no way for anyone to try hiding from them or talking them into not attacking or whatever within the rules.

If you really need a stat in the middle of an encounter, make it up.  The PCs hiding under a veil was one of the options I listed.  If they decide to go on the run from the cops, then that's the branching point in the story.

Once they've made that decision, then why call for a roll? See page 309 for why that roll wouldn't matter.  The game has already switched to "terrorists on the run" or "America's Most Wanted" so what's the interesting outcomes if they fail or succeed?

Richard

[Tedronai]

Take out hundreds of people in front of the house, behind the house, on both sides of the house, down the street from the house, an in the mobile command centre? With one spell?

I'd love to see the math on that one.

It's called 'a decently strong ward'.

I'm sorry, I forgot that DFRPG is the game without consequences.  Where after numerous compels on one PC's HC (Special Investigations Lead Detective) and Trouble (Unbelieving Bureaucracy) over several chapters and another PC's habit of mouthing off to the police - nothing happens.  The police ignore the PCs' actions entirely.

If that isn't blatant misrepresentation, I don't know what is.
Try again, Richard.

Those collective compels got the police to show up in (seemingly overwhelming) force.  What happens after that is susceptible to the actions of the PCs.  And those actions MIGHT be 'blow them all to kingdom come'.
Of course, I would thoroughly expect more compels to follow if the PCs really did take that route, but it IS a valid route (for a certain value thereof), and denying it by calling that, essentially, swarm of mook cops (since they are by no means comprised even substantially of meaningful characters) a 'plot device', and thus not meaningfully susceptible to physical attack,  IS railroading.

[Richard_Chilton]

It's called 'a decently strong ward'.

Not the magic skill he mentioned, and the landmines in a ward tend to "take out" people in a fatal way... But that's lawbreakers for you.

If that isn't blatant misrepresentation, I don't know what is.

Actually, it's a plot device borrowed from a novel.  During the series there were enough "the cop friend fixes things" and there was a long term antagonist NPC cop.  Eventually things reached the point where it would not be plausible for the police not to take action.

And when the police take action, they don't go for balanced encounters.  They use overwhelming force in the hopes that the bad guy will be smart enough not to try to shoot them.

Those collective compels got the police to show up in (seemingly overwhelming) force.  What happens after that is susceptible to the actions of the PCs.  And those actions MIGHT be 'blow them all to kingdom come'.

Of course, I would thoroughly expect more compels to follow if the PCs really did take that route, but it IS a valid route (for a certain value thereof), and denying it by calling that, essentially, swarm of mook cops (since they are by no means comprised even substantially of meaningful characters) a 'plot device', and thus not meaningfully susceptible to physical attack,  IS railroading.

So the world should never respond to the PCs' actions in a plausible way?

Spend game after game getting a cop friend to "fix" things for your PC while antagonizing the authorities, make (and leave unresolved) an enemy in Internal Affairs, make the interaction a major theme of the game - and nothing happens to your PC - that's removing consequences from the game.

In your game, could I have a PC walk into a daycare and open up with automatic weapon while proclaiming his name and address - and specifying that any takeouts my PC does are fatal ones, without repercussions? Or could I say that when the police show up in overwhelming numbers "Dude, wtf? Why are you railroading me here? Anymore than two cops is overkill."?

Richard

[Becq]

Given that the police force described can fairly easily generate a several hundred shift collective attack^*, I wonder what a 'decently strong ward' constitutes...?


^*One mook cop with a pistol ~= 5 shift attack.  One hundred mook cops = 5 shift attack +198 shifts from tagging 99 supporting fire aspects.  Of course I'm making the assumption here that the NPC cops get to use the same (in my opinion abusive, but opinions vary) aspect proliferation that the PCs use.