Kemmlerian Necromancy, whats the agenda?

[ways and means]

The ability to use Soulfire is given to Harry by an Angel but as the power comes from him (his soul) I can't see how it could have an agenda different from Harry's own.

[Tedronai]

The ability to use Soulfire is given to Harry by an Angel but as the power comes from him (his soul) I can't see how it could have an agenda different from Harry's own.

THIS.

I'm not sure you know what that fallacy means...I quoted a (presumably) authoritative source (the rule book).  If you don't accept the book as authoritative you have a point.  But then we also lose any common point of view to discuss from.

I was claiming that the very source you used, while authoritative for the purposes of the game as written, itself makes a claim not supported by the novels upon which it is based.  Referencing YS, then, as evidence that YS is accurate in its presentation of Soulfire, is a fallacious response to my claim.

If the crux of the argument starts with, "Okay, first just ignore everything we've actually been told about it (except for the single bit that supports my point)," then maybe it's not the right one.

Please don't misrepresent my argument.  I'm not 'ignoring everything we've actually been told about it'.  I'm saying that the ONE source that actually claims that the power comes from Heaven (YS, not the novels) is supported, at most, circumstantially by ALL other references to the power that I'm aware of (ie. the novels) if not outright contradicted.

So, basically, other than exposition in the novels and YS, there's no evidence that soulfire's sponsor is heaven?  I guess Hellfire's sponsor is also ambiguous?

Please point to the exposition in the novels that ACTUALLY SAYS that Soulfire is sponsored by heaven, rather than simply used, and in one instance imparted/enabled/taught.
As for YS, see: 'begging the question'.
Hellfire isn't explicitly powered by the user's own soul.  It is, in fact, explicitly a power source external to the user.

[vultur]

Kemmlerian Necromancy - yes, the agenda is basically "use more necromancy". I'm not sure it necessarily goes into 2-d cackling villain mode though; think Kumori. Her goals involve using necromancy a lot, to change the world radically, but it's not "Yay death and zombies!" Definitely very corrupting, distinctly evil, but it can be a subtler kind of "regardless of the consequences", "ends justify the means", believing you have the right to control everything 'for its own good' evil too.

Soulfire - I can see at least two ways to interpret this. One is that the ability to *use* it is provided by Heaven/the (Arch)angels/God, and so it acts just like "Heaven sponsored magic" would even though it's fueled by your soul. The other is that it's just your soul - all Uriel did was 'show Harry how' or 'open the channels' - and the agenda is based on your true/better nature (which may be very different from 'what you want right now').

[ways and means]

Kemmlerian Necromancy - yes, the agenda is basically "use more necromancy". I'm not sure it necessarily goes into 2-d cackling villain mode though; think Kumori. Her goals involve using necromancy a lot, to change the world radically, but it's not "Yay death and zombies!" Definitely very corrupting, distinctly evil, but it can be a subtler kind of "regardless of the consequences", "ends justify the means", believing you have the right to control everything 'for its own good' evil too.

Soulfire - I can see at least two ways to interpret this. One is that the ability to *use* it is provided by Heaven/the (Arch)angels/God, and so it acts just like "Heaven sponsored magic" would even though it's fueled by your soul. The other is that it's just your soul - all Uriel did was 'show Harry how' or 'open the channels' - and the agenda is based on your true/better nature (which may be very different from 'what you want right now').

I always interpret it the second way but only because angels directly interfacing with people's souls seems to be a violation of the non-interference directive.

[Becq]

“Well,” the skull said. “Soulfire is…well. It’s Hellfire, essentially. Only from the other place.”
“Heavenfire?”
“Well…” Bob said, “yes. And no. Hellfire is something you use to destroy things. Soulfire is used the opposite way—to create stuff. Look, basically what you do is, you take a portion of your soul and you use it as a matrix for your magic.”

Seems pretty straightforward.  Hellfire is something you get from Hell.  Soulfire is something you get from Heaven.  Hellfire is used to destroy stuff.  Soulfire is used to create stuff.  In the books, Hellfire makes Harry's magic more destructive but less controlled, while Soulfire doesn't make it stronger so much as lets it be used with amazing control.

I can't think of a single time in the entire series to date in which Hellfire was used without a sponsoring Fallen, and Soulfire has to my memory only been used through Uriel's sponsorship.  If I'm missing something, please point me to evidence that contradicts this.

Also, here's some cryptic WoJ I was able to find on the subject of soulfire:

"Does the same apply to hellfire/soulfire. What would happen if Harry were to take up Lasciel’s coin and then try to use soulfire and hellfire together? Would that result in Harry dying horribly?”

Those are different. They’re really two sides of the same coin–but they can’t really exist together like that. They aren’t explosively reactive, but they aren’t additive, either. Which one came into the person to be used would depend on the person who was using it, and what they were using it for.

Angelic types have access to both. Which one they use is partially what determines what /kind/ of angels they are.

So angels can technically access both Hellfire and Soulfire, but in practice what they use their power to do dictates which magic is used.  The Fallen, who seek to oppose God's Will, use Hellfire.  The one who didn't Fall, and who uphold God's Will, use Soulfire.

[ways and means]

Hellfire is power you get from Hell, Soulfire is power you get from your soul. This makes sense in the Dresden verse  when you consider all power seems to be tied to humans and their beliefs, so the power of heaven comes from the power of heaven's souls not the reverse.

[Tedronai]

This:

“Heavenfire?”
“Well…” Bob said, “yes. And no.

Is not this:

Soulfire is something you get from Heaven.

Bob immediate goes into more detail, and it is not '[fire/power/magic] you get from Heaven'.
If you're going to quote the novels, at least don't blatantly misrepresent their content immediately afterwards.  It's just shameful.

[Becq]

If you're going to quote the novels, at least don't blatantly misrepresent their content immediately afterwards.  It's just shameful.

I didn't; you did.

Bob's first statement: Soulfire is from the 'other place' (ie, not Hell).  While he doesn't say outright what the other place is, I think that its an easy inference, don't you?
Bob's second statement: Bob said yes and no to Harry's logical leap that Soulfire was therefore just a rebranded Hellfire -- not to the source (which he established in statement #1).  Ie, yes, it was basically the same power (which Jim Butcher also stated in the WoJ I quoted -- "two sides of the same coin").  But no, it wasn't exactly the same, because it was used in opposite ways -- to build, not destroy like Hellfire.

If you're going to quote me quoting the novels, at least don't blatently misrepresent their content immediately afterwards.  It's just shameful.

As to Soulfire being powered by the soul ... well, my theory is that both Hellfire and Soulfire draw on the power of souls.  It just that Soulfire involves the temporary self sacrifice, whereas with Hellfire involves a high-interest loan of some else's.  But that's just a theory.

In any case, all magic draws on one's soul -- that's part of what mental stress means.

[eri]

I think no one's really doubting that the instances of Soulfire we see in the books are granted from the white god, via Uriel, but the question is can any other sources grant it? Like say, Hephaestus or Marduk or someone. Craftsmanship gods and Creator gods in general.

But anyway, we should be careful not to stray to far away from the original question.

I am having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around some of the sponsored magic flavours. Soul-fire requiring goodynies I can live with, but Kemmlerian Necromancy really ticks me of. What source of power does it draw on, specifically? I can only think of death itself and I just don't see death as having so much of an agenda.
I feel that if an bad guy is using sponsored magic this should limit him somehow, allowing the players to get an edge in once they recognize the pattern, but what does kemmlerian force a necromancer to do what he would not have done already?
The same goes for the layline sponsor in the neutral grounds case file. I understand that some sources might be more mysterious and knowledgeable, but that seems to make them also unplayable or at least flavourless and bland when they come in to play.

Anyhow, I am sure this has been addressed in the past, I just haven't been able to find it yet.

I think Kemmlerian Necromancy is tapping into enthropy somehow. I don't have access to my books at the moment, but I think you should go look at that place in the books where Harry accidentally wakes up evil Bob. And really any place with evil Bob is probably going to tell you more about how Kemmler acted than I could, and he was presumably in deep with the source, given that it's named after him.

What you could do about other "mysterious" and knowledgeable sources is sit down and consider where the sponsor's goals differ from the sponsee (is that a word?) and go from there. Maybe together with the player? (assuming you are the GM) Give him stuff when they agree and deny him when they don't. Think Pavlovian dogs. Of course if your problem is that you don't know your sponsors goals, then you need to make them first. Think about what their needs are, and what if any beliefs are associated with them. Often sponsors don't have or even understand human needs, like sleep or food, but they may have something they need the same way, like prayer or sunlight or something. Look over the needs-hierarchy pyramid and substitute the human needs with the sponsors needs. Switch it around if it feels appropriate. Maybe for gods esteem needs are more important than physiological needs?

[Mr. Death]

You know, I've seen people take quotes out of context, add and subtract certain bits to support their side, and misinterpret text that they don't have at hand, but this might be the first time I've seen someone try and do all that when the original quote is there, in full, less than one mouse-wheel scroll away.

I mean, seriously, it's right there. We can all see it, and it supports fairly clearly that Soulfire is something granted by Heaven/The White God.

Though you're right, Becq didn't get "soulfire comes from Heaven" from

“Heavenfire?”
“Well…” Bob said, “yes. And no.

He got it from the bits you deliberately left out.

“Well,” the skull said. “Soulfire is…well. It’s Hellfire, essentially. Only from the other place.”
“Heavenfire?”
“Well…” Bob said, “yes. And no. Hellfire is something you use to destroy things. Soulfire is used the opposite way—to create stuff. Look, basically what you do is, you take a portion of your soul and you use it as a matrix for your magic.”

I'd say when the spirit of knowledge says it's "from the other place," (which, in context, could only possibly be Heaven) and then answers yes at first to Harry's question, that's pretty clear. Do you expect us to believe the quote really means

“Heavenfire?”
“Well…” Bob said, “...no."

Even though we can all see the original text?

[ways and means]

Personally I don't take OW or your story as DS canon but more as just the best interpretation Evil Hat can come up with. From the books it is clear that the power source of Soulfire is a person soul, Harry is using up his own soul to power his magic he is not channeling the power of heaven/ God in the same way hellfire channels the power of hell/ Satan. I am not questioning that an Angel taught him how to do this but I am questioning whether Heaven could cut him off from his own soul or enforce its agenda in the same way that Hell can with Hellfire, in fact if it was to do so it would be going against its own free-will mantra.

As for Kemmlerite Magic it seems likely that its sponsor is "death" or the "power of the dead"  literally stealing the power of dead spirits and whatever is beyond the veil.

(click to show/hide)

this can be seen in how the Dark Hallow worked

. 

[Harboe]

RE: Soulfire
I read the quote like this:

“Heavenfire?”
“Well…” Bob said, “yes. And no. Hellfire is something you use to destroy things. Soulfire is used the opposite way—to create stuff. Look, basically what you do is, you take a portion of your soul and you use it as a matrix for your magic.”

As in: Soulfire serves a similar, opposed function as Hellfire (which is the 'yes'-part), but unlike Hellfire it is power within you, used and controlled by you for your purposes.

And compels would be similar to Harry's exhaustion after unintentionally blasting those RCVs and Bob remarking how his soul was shredded because of it.

[YPU]

Ok, to be honest I am not completely satisfied yet with what the agenda for necromancy would be. So I was wondering if anybody could write up what they inmagine as an interesting compel from this sponsor?

[Mr. Death]

RE: Soulfire
I read the quote like this:As in: Soulfire serves a similar, opposed function as Hellfire (which is the 'yes'-part), but unlike Hellfire it is power within you, used and controlled by you for your purposes.

And compels would be similar to Harry's exhaustion after unintentionally blasting those RCVs and Bob remarking how his soul was shredded because of it.

That's Bob talking about what it's used for. And it still ignores that Bob says right before that it's from "the other place." He explains how it functions differently, saying that it does different things in a different way from Hellfire, but the fact remains that Harry can only use this power--at all--because he got on the good side of an Archangel (and, by extension, the White God).

If you can only use the power because a super-powerful being gave you the ability to, that makes that super-powerful being the power's sponsor.

Think of it this way: Harry's magic is like the Blue Beetle: He owns it, he maintains it, he pays for the gas, and he can use it however the heck he likes, at no cost except personal, because it's his. Soulfire would be a rented or leased car--Harry is still paying for the gas in the tank, but the car isn't really his--there's a contract, certain things he'll be willing/unwilling to do because of that contract and the debt he still owes to whoever he's renting or leasing it from.

As for Kemmlerian Necromancy, I'd say the agenda might resemble what Kemmler was up to...whatever that might be.

[ways and means]

Kemmlerite Necromancy final agenda would be tearing the veil merging life and death the way to achieve this more and bigger necromancy.