The Catch Rewrite

[Tedronai]

And that the above says absolutely nothing as to the game balance of the power, speaking solely to what the developers predicted as the predominant PC-group composition.

[Sanctaphrax]

As Tedronai says, that's not relevant.

If Physical Immunity is too strong to let someone have for 8 Refresh, it should cost more than 8 Refresh. That's the entire reason that Refresh is a thing. To keep PCs at the appropriate level of power and to let people judge the strength of a Power at a glance.

[Haru]

This was actually supposed to go into the other thread, sorry.

[sinker]

You know what Sancta? It's all perfectly relevant. You asked what we thought of your rules changes. I mentioned that I already use one and otherwise have no problem with the current system. PI was mentioned, you said it's wrong, I said I disagree and have had good experiences with it, then you attacked my reasoning. Just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean that I'm "unhelpful." Dissenting opinions are necessary for balance.

So, I'll say it again, then leave it alone. I don't have any significant problems with the current system.

[Tedronai]

You know what Sancta? It's all perfectly relevant.

A suggestion that a power be restricted to NPCs is not relevant to a discussion about whether that power is balanced.  I've gone into this point in greater detail on one of the spin-off threads, here.

[sinker]

Apologies, I spoke out of frustration (and also in response to a number of posts). I did get a bit off topic with the "PI is only for NPCs". What I was trying to say is that, in a discussion about changing rules it's very beneficial to know that people like the current system and why. When I said "I like the current system, because the burden is on the GM and that's where I like it" I was met with criticism of my personal play style. That is unhelpful.

[ways and means]

Personally I don't see it as possible to balance PI against toughness at any refresh because PI is unquantifiable so the numbers don't add up. Mind you actually the next time step down after mythic recovery would be healing all wounds (except extreme) instantly so PI does make sense as an upgrade to recovery. Really full PI (not PI vs a specific) should never be available to a PC and so it is debatable if it need a refresh cost at all or if it is just something you stick on a high powered opponent. But specific PI's actually can make sense for PC's especially Magic immunity which is in my opinion attached to the Ogre Changeling template and if you were to create an outsider scion it would be attached to their template too. I personally think the current costing of specific PI is reasonable but I can understand why some people think otherwise.

[UmbraLux]

A suggestion that a power be restricted to NPCs is not relevant to a discussion about whether that power is balanced. 

It is relevant if you're discussing balance between PCs.  Very relevant. 

Don't know about Sinker or others, but I don't even try to balance NPCs with the PCs.  Don't really want to, I'm trying to create a challenge not parity.

[Tedronai]

Really full PI (not PI vs a specific) should never be available to a PC and so it is debatable if it need a refresh cost at all or if it is just something you stick on a high powered opponent.

See my link above.

It is relevant if you're discussing balance between PCs.  Very relevant. 

Still no.  Why?

And that the above says absolutely nothing as to the game balance of the power, speaking solely to what the developers predicted as the predominant PC-group composition.

Don't know about Sinker or others, but I don't even try to balance NPCs with the PCs.  Don't really want to, I'm trying to create a challenge not parity.

And properly powers with balanced Refresh costs are an important part of that effort.

[Sanctaphrax]

sinker, I wasn't calling everything you said irrelevant.

But whether or not PCs can take a Power does not affect what cost is appropriate for it. Tedronai is spot-on.

Furthermore, PCs can take PI. It says right there in the passage that it's only restricted to NPCs almost all of the time.

So when PCs take PI, they should pay an appropriate cost for it. This isn't arguable.

What is arguable is what an appropriate cost for it is.

[Silverblaze]

I have no issue with the catch at present.

I have nothing bad to say about changing it as an option for groups to use either.

I think PI needs a rewrite.  I made a thread for it.

Please contribute.

[vultur]

And its mandatory-ness causes headaches for, so far as I can tell, no good reason.

I think largely setting purposes: everything seems to have a weakness  - so it doesn't really make sense to get out of it just by having enough Refresh not to need the Catch rebate. Even Mab flinches from iron.

The only real problem, IMO, is caused by non-supernatural toughness such as really big creatures - the two extra stress boxes from Hulking Size aren't nearly enough to represent how much tougher something like Sue or Tiny the Gruff should be, just from being multi-ton critter, even before any supernatural defenses they might have.

Personally I don't see it as possible to balance PI against toughness at any refresh because PI is unquantifiable so the numbers don't add up.

I agree, the costing is kind of arbitrary.

Mind you actually the next time step down after mythic recovery would be healing all wounds (except extreme) instantly so PI does make sense as an upgrade to recovery.

Viewing it as super Recovery with a healing time of "absolutely instant", before the being can even lose blood or die from what would otherwise be a fatal wound, makes sense, yeah.

I'd actually personally like it if some things with PI instead had supra-Mythic Toughness or supra-Mythic Recovery (with a Stacked Catch as normal PI). Would a grendelkin be able to ignore, or would Madrigal's ward cloths be able to block, a fire spell cast by the original Merlin or by Kemmler?  IMO, there should be some limit, since the grendelkin's power is in "fluff" described as an ability to counter magic. (I'm willing to accept Nicodemus' noose protection and Lord Raith's magic immunity as genuinely absolute - at least as long as their power source  - probably Hell/Lucifer and HWWB or an Old One, respectively - exists, and short of intervention on the level of a no-holds-barred Archangel, a Faerie Mother, or higher. Loup-Garou ... depends. If they're really a Heaven-powered curse, it could really be absolute; otherwise, I'd vote "just really insanely tough", they probably wouldn't survive ground zero of a nuke or a Tunguska.)

Basically, I think immunity should work like everything else in the setting - power has to come from somewhere. If you're tough because of your personal powers/magic/supernatural nature, it should be limited by that power; effectively limitless toughness should require drawing on some effectively-limitless power source.

[Sanctaphrax]

I think largely setting purposes: everything seems to have a weakness  - so it doesn't really make sense to get out of it just by having enough Refresh not to need the Catch rebate. Even Mab flinches from iron.

And yet Evil Hat writes NPCs with no Catches. I found two just flipping through OW. (Gard and Tera West.)

If Evil Hat does it and it's not a problem, why should it be a problem if we do it?

Characters rarely get to choose where their Refresh goes. I'm sure plenty of people would love Wizard's Constitution or Human Guise, but despite being free they're not easy abilities to acquire.

I'd actually personally like it if some things with PI instead had supra-Mythic Toughness or supra-Mythic Recovery (with a Stacked Catch as normal PI). Would a grendelkin be able to ignore, or would Madrigal's ward cloths be able to block, a fire spell cast by the original Merlin or by Kemmler?  IMO, there should be some limit, since the grendelkin's power is in "fluff" described as an ability to counter magic. (I'm willing to accept Nicodemus' noose protection and Lord Raith's magic immunity as genuinely absolute - at least as long as their power source  - probably Hell/Lucifer and HWWB or an Old One, respectively - exists, and short of intervention on the level of a no-holds-barred Archangel, a Faerie Mother, or higher. Loup-Garou ... depends. If they're really a Heaven-powered curse, it could really be absolute; otherwise, I'd vote "just really insanely tough", they probably wouldn't survive ground zero of a nuke or a Tunguska.)

I agree.

[Tedronai]

If Evil Hat does it and it's not a problem, why should it be a problem if we do it?

This is just sloppy logic.
I see nothing here the would be sufficient to conclude that Evil Hat's Catchless creations are not a problem save that their actual use is purely optional.

[Sanctaphrax]

I've never heard anyone complain about them, IIRC.

I wouldn't feel worried about including them in my games.

I have no reason to believe that anyone has a problem with them.

Why should I assume that the canonical Catchless characters are an issue?