Author Topic: The Catch Rewrite  (Read 15141 times)

Offline sinker

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Re: The Catch Rewrite
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2012, 04:50:03 PM »
I know this isn't part of your original concerns, but I thought I'd throw it out there since we're looking at this.

It's always bugged me a bit that we have a mechanical system for removing toughness powers (which is usually initiated through a compel) but for any other similar removal of powers is dealt with solely through compels. Is anyone else interested in a catch for other powers or at least some unification of this concept?

As far as percentage based costs, that kinda reduces the ability for low-refresh characters to be more than just a tank. Personally I like the current rebate set-up (though as I've said before I long since replaced the current questions with "How frequently will the catch matter?").

Offline Vargo Teras

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Re: The Catch Rewrite
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2012, 04:44:39 AM »
For 1), I feel like the current questions are reasonable guidelines, though the language could use some reworking.  For example, a +2 availability Catch shouldn't just be something that anyone can get their hands on; it should be something that anyone can easily acquire in a dangerous form.  Cold iron certainly counts, as any home, workplace, or well-equipped car trunk has at least one mostly-iron item with the weight and heft to be used as a bludgeon or the pokiness to be used as a shiv.  Fire, likewise, is inherently damaging, and can readily be generated.  But something which is hard to find, even if it doesn't take True Magic or some other genuinely-limited resource to employ, shouldn't get that same benefit; anyone could theoretically acquire a bottle of holy water, but it's not common.  Likewise, things that are hard to weaponize either shouldn't count, or should render the creature vulnerable to all attacks made after exposure; if garlic is your only weakness, you should either burst into flame when exposed or have your hide suddenly rendered soft and delicate.  It shouldn't take actual garlic-induced blunt trauma to do you in.

Again, for commonality of knowledge, I'd make +2 something that either anyone who knows anything at all will know, or something that will almost certainly be arrived at by trial and error in the course of a given combat.  The classic superhero Toughness, which doesn't apply to actual penetrating injury but shields against ludicrous amounts of blunt trauma, would count here; likewise silver against werewolves, which almost anyone who thinks they know what a werewolf is will try.

As far as point 2) goes, I think it's quite reasonable to simply design a +0 Catch as follows: Only by weapons which bypass all defenses, requires direct knowledge. 

Offline Becq

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Re: The Catch Rewrite
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2012, 05:29:18 AM »
I've also always disliked the way the Catch was written.  The fixed rebate causes problems, and it seems clear by comparing the rules for the Catch to samples in OW that even the game designers had no consensus as to how they should be applied.

There are a lot of good ideas above.  I'm a fan of (a) shifting to a 'how often will the Catch matter' scheme, and (b) replacing fixed rebates with some form of scaled rebates.  While the idea of replacing the refund with a purely compel-driven concept has some appeal, I think that the result becomes too refresh-expensive for characters with more that a a couple of refresh worth of toughness/recovery powers.

Here's my attempt:

Quote
First, decide how often the Catch in question should come into play.  Factors may include such concepts as difficulty to discover, difficulty to acquire, or difficulty to use offensively -- but ultimately it is a question as to how often the player wants the Catch to impact play:
(*) Mild Catch: impacts the character only rarely (perhaps once or twice in the campaign)
(*) Moderate Catch: impacts the character uncommonly (perhaps once every couple of sessions)
(*) Severe Catch: impacts the character frequently (practically every session, and often multiple times in a session)

The character then gets a rebate on the total cost of any toughness/recovery powers based on the severity of the Catch, as follows:
(*) Mild: +1 rebate per three levels of applicable powers, starting with the second
(*) Moderate: +1 rebate per two levels of applicable powers, starting with the first
(*) Severe: +1 rebate per level of applicable powers
Note that 'levels' of toughness/recovery powers refers to 2-refresh increments (so Mythic Toughness counts as three levels, as does Inhuman Toughness plus Supernatural Recovery).

In addition, facing combat with Catch-equipped opponents should generally qualify as a compel.

Some features of a system like this:
1) There is no point at which a character can increase their toughness/recovery powers at no cost.
2) Character with many refresh invested into Catch-based powers get increased benefit from the rebate.
3) Characters with only one or two powers might get the same rebate at several different severities (basically a matter of rounding), but will 'make up' for this via compels.

Offline sinker

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Re: The Catch Rewrite
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2012, 04:00:01 PM »
It's not a bad system Becq, but how does that work with immunity (which has only one level that costs 8 refresh) and the stacked catch?

Offline DFJunkie

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Re: The Catch Rewrite
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2012, 04:41:13 PM »
Count Immunity as level 4 of toughness?
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Offline ways and means

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Re: The Catch Rewrite
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2012, 05:51:45 PM »
Inhuman toughness (minor) -2
Inhuman Toughness (moderate) -1
Inhuman Toughness (severe) -1

Supernatural Toughness (minor) -3
Supernatural Toughness (moderate) -3
Supernatural Toughness (severe) -2

Mythic Toughness (minor) -5
Mythic Toughness (moderate) - 4
Mythic Toughness (severe) – 3

Mythic Toughness + Inhuman Recovery (minor) -7
Mythic Toughness + Inhuman Recovery (moderate) -6
Mythic Toughness + Inhuman Recovery (Severe) - 4

Mythic Toughness + Supernatural Toughness (minor) -8
Mythic Toughness + Supernatural Toughness (moderate) -7
Mythic Toughness + Supernatural Toughness (severe) - 5

Mythic Toughness + Mythic Recovery (minor) -10
Mythic Toughness + Mythic Recovery (moderate) -9
Mythic Toughness + Mythic Recovery (severe) - 6

Using Beq model it seems to work a lot better at higher toughness levels than lower where a lot of the categories are the same.

Minor (2) (5)
Moderate (1) (3) (5)
Severe half         
 
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 06:09:17 PM by ways and means »
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Offline sinker

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Re: The Catch Rewrite
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2012, 05:56:11 PM »
I'm sure it gets more complex as you add recovery too.

Offline sinker

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Re: The Catch Rewrite
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2012, 06:06:50 PM »
Inhuman toughness + Recovery (minor) -3
Inhuman Toughness + Recovery (moderate) -3
Inhuman Toughness + Recovery (severe) -2

Supernatural Toughness + Inhuman Recovery (minor) -5
Supernatural Toughness + Inhuman Recovery (moderate) -4
Supernatural Toughness + Inhuman Recovery (severe) -3

Supernatural Toughness + Supernatural Recovery (minor) -7 
Supernatural Toughness + Supernatural Recovery (moderate) -6
Supernatural Toughness + Supernatural Recovery (severe) -4

Mythic Toughness + Inhuman Recovery (minor) -7
Mythic Toughness + Inhuman Recovery (moderate) - 6
Mythic Toughness + Inhuman Recovery (severe) – 4

Mythic Toughness + Supernatural Recovery (minor) -8
Mythic Toughness + Supernatural Recovery (moderate) - 7
Mythic Toughness + Supernatural Recovery (severe) – 5

Mythic Toughness + Mythic Recovery (minor) -10
Mythic Toughness + Mythic Recovery (moderate) - 9
Mythic Toughness + Mythic Recovery (severe) – 6

Or maybe a simpler way of looking at it:

One level: Mild +0, Moderate +1, Severe +1
Two levels: Mild +1, Moderate +1, Severe +2
Three levels: Mild +1, Moderate +2, Severe +3
Four levels: Mild +1, Moderate +2, Severe +4
Five levels: Mild +2, Moderate +3, Severe +5
Six levels: Mild +2, Moderate +3, Severe +6
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 06:14:57 PM by sinker »

Offline ways and means

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Re: The Catch Rewrite
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2012, 06:11:07 PM »
See what I mean it works much better at higher numbers.
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Offline sinker

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Re: The Catch Rewrite
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2012, 06:18:49 PM »
Yeah, agreed.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: The Catch Rewrite
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2012, 07:35:40 PM »
Count Immunity as level 4 of toughness?

It would need to count not as 'level 4'of toughness', but as 4 levels of toughness in and of itself.
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Offline sinker

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Re: The Catch Rewrite
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2012, 08:57:57 PM »
I'm more worried about the stacked catch than anything else. Does it follow the same guidelines? If so Immunity becomes much less workable in the way it was intended to work (though it also becomes less workable in the cheese-weaselly way).

Offline ways and means

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Re: The Catch Rewrite
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2012, 10:18:20 PM »
My biggest problem with the method is that it really overprices selective toughness (only vs a certain thing) which I think does deserve a more than 50% rebate.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: The Catch Rewrite
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2012, 10:20:59 PM »
I'm more worried about the stacked catch than anything else. Does it follow the same guidelines? If so Immunity becomes much less workable in the way it was intended to work (though it also becomes less workable in the cheese-weaselly way).

I'm not sure I understand the problem that you're referencing.  Could you elaborate?


@W&M
The solution, there, would seem to be a 4th tier of the Catch, rated at some variation of 'most of the time'
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: The Catch Rewrite
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2012, 12:46:45 AM »
Me likey.

I think I'll just steal that.

Though there should definitely be another level for people who just want to be fireproof or tough against one type of monster ow whatever. I suggest +3/2 levels, for simplicity's sake.

Also, I'd forget PI. It should cost more anyway, it can work on a different system. Ideally, Catches would be more important to PI than to other forms of Toughness.