Author Topic: Vampires Lore  (Read 4429 times)

Offline ways and means

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Vampires Lore
« on: May 14, 2012, 02:26:51 AM »
I was wondering how quickly do people think a small number of Black Court Vampires could replenish there number if they were in a hurry would zombies (horror movie) level of reproduction make them unbeatable?  I ask this because there is no making people into vampires powers so I am at a loss at to how it works?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 02:33:10 AM by ways and means »
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Vampires Lore
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2012, 02:39:22 AM »
No.

Just no. 

If that is your plot for a game, I guess it is possible...but...

I know they could make a lot of vampires.  I just think there is a learning curve on powers.  The new vampires would be weaker and not know how to use their new powers to their full potential.   

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 (White Wolf Vampires seem to work that way and I always liked that.)

I'm pretty certain, that if we're following canon, it isn't possible. If it were that simple the scourges would have been hunted to complete extinction.  Barring that, the entire world would be a human farm for BCV's.  Some ambitious vamp would have tried it and found it it doesn't work. 

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Besides nothing is unbeatable.  Kemmler is beatable.  Get a few KoC's together, have them all drop a Righteousness Nuke.  Problem mostly solved.  (I assume most BCV have lower disciplines, most BCV newbies should have a lower discipline for sure.)  Sure, that leaves plenty of the older tougher ones or unique younger ones, but it is far from zombie epidemic. 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 02:40:53 AM by Silverblaze »

Offline ways and means

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Re: Vampires Lore
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2012, 02:51:02 AM »
No.

Just no. 

If that is your plot for a game, I guess it is possible...but...

I know they could make a lot of vampires.  I just think there is a learning curve on powers.  The new vampires would be weaker and not know how to use their new powers to their full potential.   

(click to show/hide)

 (White Wolf Vampires seem to work that way and I always liked that.)

I'm pretty certain, that if we're following canon, it isn't possible. If it were that simple the scourges would have been hunted to complete extinction.  Barring that, the entire world would be a human farm for BCV's.  Some ambitious vamp would have tried it and found it it doesn't work. 

(click to show/hide)

Besides nothing is unbeatable.  Kemmler is beatable.  Get a few KoC's together, have them all drop a Righteousness Nuke.  Problem mostly solved.  (I assume most BCV have lower disciplines, most BCV newbies should have a lower discipline for sure.)  Sure, that leaves plenty of the older tougher ones or unique younger ones, but it is far from zombie epidemic.

The fact that the world hasn't been completely overrun by vampires indicates that vampires don't have disease level reproduction. If they could reproduce like that say with a 3 to the power of x modifier ( so 1 vampire can only create 2 other vampire as we saw in Birthday) it would take less than 10 repetitions for there to be over 50,000 vampires. This level of reproduction would mean the black court could turn a city in days so in days the Black Court could have millions of vampires.  KoC can bypass catches there reflexes are not superhuman and black court vampires can move as fast as Thomas this means fighting 1 black court vampire and actually hitting him should be a struggle for a knight, fighting dozens or hundreds an impossibility. So given that they don't have disease level growth how fast to people think they can reproduce?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 01:12:27 PM by ways and means »
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Vampires Lore
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2012, 04:21:34 AM »
A massive crowd of vamps could be massacred with a single fire Evocation or a single activation of Righteousness. Or by the sunrise, or by large-scale bombing.

So even if an entire city got vamped, it wouldn't be anything like invincible.

There are no actual mechanics for vamp-making, and we know little about how it's supposed to work narratively.

So we've got to make it up...personally, I'd say a Master could make maybe a dozen vamps a night. Don't think lesser vamps can spawn at all.

Offline EdgeOfDreams

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Re: Vampires Lore
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2012, 04:39:20 AM »
I think this just goes back to one of the books more general explanations of why a lot of the supernatural factions keep themselves so well-hidden from humanity - the more open they are, the more likely they'll have to deal with a mob full of torches and pitchforks (or, in this day and age, shotguns and hand grenades).

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Vampires Lore
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2012, 04:58:19 AM »
The fact that the world hasn't been completely overrun by vampires indicates that vampires don't have disease level reproduction otherwise they would win one vamp could easily create dozen more who could create dozens more etc an never wave of super powered death, KoC can't fight dozens of black court vampires they are only humans and wizards would be over run, cities could be overrun in days where talking end of days territory.  So given they don't have disease level growth how fast to people think they can reproduce? (White Wolf Vamps don't have that level of reproduction either siring kindred is a big effort on the part of vampires).

Punctuation.

Sorry.  In all seriousness.  I think you already decided the answer to your question.  They can infact do it.  No one can stop them.  They win.  It is the end of days.  This is goingto sound rude and to some extent it is.  I have to ask though.  If you seem to have the answer already decided in your mind...why ask our opinions?  I can tell you I agree and let you hear what you seem to want...but I'd be lying.


Also, Knights can totally fight dozens of vamps. That is what they are for, saving the world from evil.  They have Archangels backing them up. 
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I even just explained how to do it as a Knight.  Been there done that. (BCVs and RCVs)  Random people made into vampires do not turn into martial arts masters like in Buffyverse.  Their skills will not match what combat veterans can do.  A measly +1, +2, or, +3 combat skill will not match up to +5 or +6.   I've seen teamwork in action before also in this game.  It doesn't work quite as well as it sounds.

I answered your question fine.

The setting (assuming you ascribe to that and are asking about our opinions with that setting and canon in mind...) pretty much couldn't exist if BCV could make armies of powerful vampires. 

Keeping with canon and setting established by Jim Butcher and the setting used by Evil Hat to create the DFRPG - I give you this explanation:

If vampires could do it; they would have by now.  The fact that they haven't means they can't.  I give vampires enough credit to think of that on their own.

I could see them making as many people as they could bite in an evening (assuming that is how they make more).  I just don't think it matters or that they are of any sufficient quality.

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In your own setting they can be as powerful as you want.  They can reproduce as fast as you want.  They can be Bruce Lee as soon as they get made. 

If you want me to come up with a sane arbitrary number?  I'll just go with Sanctaphrax's idea.  Or let them make thousands and rule the world.  Your game, your setting, your rules.


As an aside:

V:tM has rules for mass Embracing via the Sabbat Ritae.  The vampires come out by the droves.  They suck compared to most vampires.  Seriously, if you make an army of vampires you can't be picky and usually get busses of cheerleaders heading to football games.  (Or maybe that was just my favorite for shovelheads)...
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 05:10:07 AM by Silverblaze »

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Vampires Lore
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2012, 12:21:18 PM »
The thing to remember about Black Court Vampires is the base vampire is, in fact, pretty easy to kill if you have even decent stats and know their weaknesses--and their weaknesses make them pretty darn weak. Sunlight outright obliterates them, holy symbols can paralyze them, garlic melts them...

If you have a decent crafter they can whip up some garlic powder grenades and take them out a half-dozen at a time. That's why Stoker's book was so effective, remember.

A single Black Court Vampire will tear apart an unprepared mortal...but a prepared mortal will have like 17 different weaknesses to choose from, half of which can either paralyze or outright kill the vamp on contact. Against a combat-oriented PC, your basic Black Court Vampire is a slightly tougher mook.

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Offline DFJunkie

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Re: Vampires Lore
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2012, 12:37:43 PM »
I was wondering how quickly do people think a small number of Black Court Vampires could replenish there number if they were in a hurry would zombies (horror movie) level of reproduction make them unbeatable?  I ask this because there is no making people into vampires powers so I am at a loss at to how it works?

My read was that BCVs could have that level of reproduction, but that the near extinction of their court left the survivors with a bone-deep aversion to anything that might call attention to the Court, and passed it along to their offspring.  So a powerful BCV?  No.  A stupid one?  Maybe.  Long enough for a story anyway.  It certainly wouldn't spread world-wide, practically the entire supernatural world would have at least a couple reasons to want to put the kaibosh on it, but I can certainly see them overrunning even a smaller city for a while.
90% of what I say is hyperbole intended for humorous effect.  Don't take me seriously. I don't.

Offline ways and means

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Re: Vampires Lore
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2012, 12:53:52 PM »
Punctuation.

Sorry.  In all seriousness.  I think you already decided the answer to your question.  They can infact do it. 

The fact that the world hasn't been completely overrun by vampires indicates that vampires don't have disease level reproduction.

A very logical conclusion you made there based on the given data.

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Offline DFJunkie

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Re: Vampires Lore
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2012, 01:49:01 PM »
A very logical conclusion you made there based on the given data.

It's certainly one of the conclusions one can draw, but not the only one.

It's also possible, even probable that BCVs avoid overpopulation voluntarily.  Their thought process is profoundly alien, it's unlikely they value companionship in any recognizable way, so every other BCV in existence is, at best, competition.  The exception for a master vampire is a subordinate vampire under it's direct control.  Now, we don't know much about the Blampires, but it is pretty likely that each master can control only so many spawn, so the probable upper limit to BCV breeding is "however many vampires a master can control." 

Ways and Means: are you asking out of curiosity or are you spitballing story ideas? 
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Offline ways and means

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Re: Vampires Lore
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2012, 01:54:32 PM »
No I was wondering if the PC ignored a black court threat for over a month how much trouble they should face.
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Offline DFJunkie

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Re: Vampires Lore
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2012, 02:07:32 PM »
Ah.  Probably a ton, but zompires would probably be the least of their worries. 

Of course, now I'm considering the possibilities inherent in a BCV plague.  I wonder if BCV "spirits" are usefull in a Darkhallow, or at least a certain kind of Darkhallow.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 02:09:50 PM by DFJunkie »
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Vampires Lore
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2012, 03:20:20 PM »
No I was wondering if the PC ignored a black court threat for over a month how much trouble they should face.
There's a WOJ about one of the reasons that the Black Court hasn't picked a place in, say, Africa and expanded: Mortal attention.

While the average human is willing to just ignore the supernatural, after a certain threshold the authorities are going to realize something's up and act on it, and the Black Court would know this. So there would be an upper limit to how big a given Scourge is going to get to avoid that kind of attention (and it will typically consist mainly of homeless and others that wouldn't be missed, at least at first).
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Offline DFJunkie

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Re: Vampires Lore
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2012, 03:39:19 PM »
Getting a couple vampiric minions probably isn't time consuming.  Give a vampire too much time and it'll probably fort up, with solid physical defenses guarded by thralls, Renfields, and darkhounds in addition to its subordinate vampires. 
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Vampires Lore
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2012, 10:44:01 PM »
Getting a couple vampiric minions probably isn't time consuming.
Yeah, the one in "It's My Birthday, Too" takes all of about 2 minutes to turn fresh kills into fresh vampires.

Quote
Give a vampire too much time and it'll probably fort up, with solid physical defenses guarded by thralls, Renfields, and darkhounds in addition to its subordinate vampires.
Exactly like Mavra did. Seems to be fairly standard for them.
Compels solve everything!

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Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

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