A House Rule For Social Combat

[Mr. Death]

Off-hand weapons training is not going to compare favourably to any of those proposed stunts, either, except in the cases where it trounces them thoroughly (see above re: bad stunt design).

Stunts are supposed to be situational. Though I might be misunderstanding what you mean here.

That's your interpretation and your preference in your homebrew stunts, and that's fine.  Off-hand weapons training will still compare erratically to more restrictive +2 stress stunts.

Erratically, yes, which means sometimes good, sometimes bad--it's a stunt that not everyone will want to take, which is fine. A stunt shouldn't necessarily be something that fits every character.

No, in the absence of a +2 stress stunt, you've got a character using a sub-par weapons choice benefiting from a stunt that partially compensates them going up against a character using a comparatively optimal weapons choice who has been assumed not to have any stunt at all.  This is a horrible comparison.
If you want to make a fair comparison, include a stunt for the swordsman that you would deem reasonable (and that you have not selected with the apparent intent to skew the results as with the case of leaving out any stunt at all).

Fair enough. I was comparing it weapon-style to weapon-style. I'd say, all other stats being equal, maybe the broadsword user has a +2 to stress, at the cost of a -1 penalty to defense when he attacks. That would be a reasonable stress-adding stunt that gives him an advantage in power at the cost of something that potentially lets a knife-wielder hold his own (especially if you apply that penalty to defenses against maneuvers as well).

And a dual-wielding knife user might not have the damage output of even a stuntless broad sworder, but damage isn't all that makes something "optimal." The knife user is going to be able to get his knives into a lot more places than someone with a broad sword, for instance, which is the advantage of low-stress weapons.

That's a valid interpretation, and I might be inclined to agree with you.  It does not, however, change the erratic nature of Off-hand weapons training's comparison to more conventional stunts.

Nowhere does it say a stunt has to benefit everyone equally. A stunt like Takes One To Know One compares unfavorably to a straight boost to Empathy if it's close in value to the Deceit skill.

[UmbraLux]

Someone who dual-wields knives should be able to keep up with someone wielding a Weapon:3 broadsword

Well, not if we're rooting our games in real world capabilities. 

We seem to have strayed a long ways from Social combat though...

[Tedronai]

Stunts are supposed to be situational. Though I might be misunderstanding what you mean here.

You are.  Most of the time OHWT it crap.  Sometimes it is better than a power.  Sometimes, with favourable interpretations of vague portions of other rules, it is better than a power that actually costs more.

Erratically, yes, which means sometimes good, sometimes bad--it's a stunt that not everyone will want to take, which is fine. A stunt shouldn't necessarily be something that fits every character.

No, erratically meaning that for some characters who would plausibly use it it is a worthless piece of crap, and for others it is ungodly-powerful.

Fair enough. I was comparing it weapon-style to weapon-style. I'd say, all other stats being equal, maybe the broadsword user has a +2 to stress, at the cost of a -1 penalty to defense when he attacks.

Remember what I said about not tailoring the stunt to skew the results?
That's what this is:

at the cost of something that potentially lets a knife-wielder hold his own

And a dual-wielding knife user might not have the damage output of even a stuntless broad sworder, but damage isn't all that makes something "optimal." The knife user is going to be able to get his knives into a lot more places than someone with a broad sword, for instance, which is the advantage of low-stress weapons.

That's a compel against the swordsman, and not particularly relevant to this discussion.

Nowhere does it say a stunt has to benefit everyone equally. A stunt like Takes One To Know One compares unfavorably to a straight boost to Empathy if it's close in value to the Deceit skill.

I don't see anyone on here disputing that.

[Sanctaphrax]

Mr. Death, if you're trying to say that "a specific weapon" is not a sufficient restriction for a stunt, then I can respect that.

But if you're trying to say that Weapons stunts should not add to stress inflicted for some reason, then your statements make little sense.

Amusingly, a guy who uses two knives with Off-Hand Weapon Training will actually get more mileage out of a broadsword than he will out of his knives. If he took a non-stupid stunt, that would not be the case.

[Mr. Death]

Mr. Death, if you're trying to say that "a specific weapon" is not a sufficient restriction for a stunt, then I can respect that.

But if you're trying to say that Weapons stunts should not add to stress inflicted for some reason, then your statements make little sense.

I've said several times that I'm fine with stunts adding stress. My problem with the Weapon Specialization ones is, once again, that I feel it's too big of a boost for too broad of a usage, too much advantage for not enough drawback.

Amusingly, a guy who uses two knives with Off-Hand Weapon Training will actually get more mileage out of a broadsword than he will out of his knives. If he took a non-stupid stunt, that would not be the case.

Well, ideally, said knife user would have other stunts to help with defense and making maneuvers--stuff based around disarming, maybe, or boosting defense because you can parry quicker, I don't know. Stuff that you could create and then tag to make up for the relatively-weak power of the weapons themselves.

Remember what I said about not tailoring the stunt to skew the results?
That's what this is:

You asked for what I thought would be a reasonable stunt. I was just extrapolating one of the effects of said stunt. It's no more "skewed" than the canon Berserker stunt.

That's a compel against the swordsman, and not particularly relevant to this discussion.

It's a compel that the knife-wielder won't necessarily get, at least as often. It was me pointing out that, as I said, "optimal" doesn't just mean "what has the bigger numbers."

[ways and means]

I've said several times that I'm fine with stunts adding stress. My problem with the Weapon Specialization ones is, once again, that I feel it's too big of a boost for too broad of a usage, too much advantage for not enough drawback.
Well, ideally, said knife user would have other stunts to help with defense and making maneuvers--stuff based around disarming, maybe, or boosting defense because you can parry quicker, I don't know. Stuff that you could create and then tag to make up for the relatively-weak power of the weapons themselves.

Any stunt you could have wielding a pair of daggers you could also have for a pair of katana's or a claymore.

[Mr. Death]

A stunt still has to make sense. I'd trust in the GM to say, "No, wielding two huge swords that weigh a lot doesn't mean you can parry faster and easier."

[ways and means]

Swirling Dervish (Weapons) (pre-req two weapon fighting) your amazing strength allows you to wield two great swords like they were made out of cardboard, allowing you to create swirling wall of steel between you and your enemies. +2 to weapons parrying when duel wielding large swords. 

Justification Large swords have a bigger area so when wield with the speed of daggers are pretty effective at parrying (basically a strength power based stunt).

[Mr. Death]

Again: The GM would have the discretion to say, "No, you can't wield two giant swords as fast as if they were knives, and parrying doesn't work that way."

[ways and means]

Strength Power pretty much means you can move heavier stuff faster, as your weight is not upgraded the only way inhuman strength is going to add to damage is by increasing the speed of the blade (force = mass x acceleration), fist etc. It also why I argue that strength should modify melee combat faster swords are harder to block.

[Mr. Death]

But not necessarily more accurate. Accuracy, which the attack roll is, is skill, not strength.

[ways and means]

A Blow with the same amount of skill but more speed and force is going to be both harder to block and harder to dodge (have to react quicker to the blow) as there are no penalty system besides bonuses to the opposing side this is the same as + accuracy. But on the other hand we should get back to social combat.

[Tedronai]

Strength Power pretty much means you can move heavier stuff faster, as your weight is not upgraded the only way inhuman strength is going to add to damage is by increasing the speed of the blade (force = mass x acceleration), fist etc. It also why I argue that strength should modify melee combat faster swords are harder to block.

A Blow with the same amount of skill but more speed and force is going to be both harder to block and harder to dodge (have to react quicker to the blow) as there are no penalty system besides bonuses to the opposing side this is the same as + accuracy.

This really isn't how muscle power works.  Those body builders who can lift 500lb weights over their heads do not, in fact, throw a baseball faster or harder than the major league pitcher, and the pitcher will not likely be able to lift the 500lb weights.
Muscle power (ie. Strength) is a far more complicated system than simply f=ma

(click to show/hide)

There is this farmer who is having problems with his chickens. All of the sudden, they are all getting very sick and he doesn't know what is wrong with them. After trying all conventional means, he calls a biologist, a chemist, and a physicist to see if they can figure out what is wrong. So the biologist looks at the chickens, examines them a bit, and says he has no clue what could be wrong with them. Then the chemist takes some tests and makes some measurements, but he can't come to any conclusions either. So the physicist tries. He stands there and looks at the chickens for a long time without touching them or anything. Then all of the sudden he starts scribbling away in a notebook. Finally, after several gruesome calculations, he exclaims, 'I've got it! But it only works for spherical chickens in a vacuum.'

[Sanctaphrax]

I've said several times that I'm fine with stunts adding stress. My problem with the Weapon Specialization ones is, once again, that I feel it's too big of a boost for too broad of a usage, too much advantage for not enough drawback.

I can't help but feel you're deliberately being vague here. Tell me, what do you think of the following stunts?

Defeat Armour: You are a master of finding weak spots in a coat of armour. All of your attacks with the Weapons skill ignore two points worth of worn armour.
Mounted Combat: You know how to fight from atop a horse. Add one to your Weapons skill when using it to attack while riding an animal.

I'd rather wait to address the other problems with your posts until you've answered this.

[ways and means]

This really isn't how muscle power works.  Those body builders who can lift 500lb weights over their heads do not, in fact, throw a baseball faster or harder than the major league pitcher, and the pitcher will not likely be able to lift the 500lb weights.
Muscle power (ie. Strength) is a far more complicated system than simply f=ma

(click to show/hide)

There is this farmer who is having problems with his chickens. All of the sudden, they are all getting very sick and he doesn't know what is wrong with them. After trying all conventional means, he calls a biologist, a chemist, and a physicist to see if they can figure out what is wrong. So the biologist looks at the chickens, examines them a bit, and says he has no clue what could be wrong with them. Then the chemist takes some tests and makes some measurements, but he can't come to any conclusions either. So the physicist tries. He stands there and looks at the chickens for a long time without touching them or anything. Then all of the sudden he starts scribbling away in a notebook. Finally, after several gruesome calculations, he exclaims, 'I've got it! But it only works for spherical chickens in a vacuum.'

The joke I like as my science knowledge is high school level I will bow to your greater knowledge, though in the case of strength power greater strength actually means faster balls as thrown weapon also get the same damage bonus.