PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Lea sent the phages after Molly. We know from as early as Grave Peril that Lea wants Molly; she asks Michael Carpenter for his eldest child.

Asking for one's firstborn is sufficiently traditional a faerie trope that I don't see that as indicating anything specific, just Lea trying the standard options. 

The "Attack" on Arctis Tor was actually Lea with the Athame (and the Black Council?) attempting to rebel against Mab.

Lea's possessor maybe.  Lea herself...  I really do not think she has the capacity.

[Elegast]

My post quoted at the start of the thread makes the distinction between resistance and immunity, and I hold to that logic; we see resistance from beings old and strong enough to bull through magic, and immunity from Lord R that is specifically identified by Harry as Outsider-backed, and the description of the fetch fits the latter.

Yet:

"Fuego!" I barked as I released the energy. Fire in a column the size of my clenched fist flashed out at Grum and splashed against his chest.
It didn't slow him down, not by a second. His skin didn't burn-his hair didn't even singe. The fire of my magic spilled over him and did absolutely nothing.

That doesn't sound like he's bulling through magic.

Edit: could anyone get the quote in Hereot when harry's magic is blocked? I don't have the text.

[Thork]

Yet:
That doesn't sound like he's bulling through magic.

Edit: could anyone get the quote in Hereot when harry's magic is blocked? I don't have the text.

The grendelkin hadn’t been kidding about knowing counter-magic, though. All that naked force hit him and just sort of slid off him, like water pouring around a stone. It only drove him back about two steps—which was room enough to let me drop to one knee and swing my staff again.
 

The problem with the "ocean of cold, cold power" quote is that it's equally interpretable as "outsider immunity" and "ancient winter fae immunity." We already know the Scarecrow is an ancient, powerful, Winter fae, so that seems the simpler explanation.

[Cenphx]

Here is the quote from Heorot

  "A golden flame of fire as wide as a whiskey barrel leapt across the cavern to the grendelkin, smashing into his head and upper body. It was too dispersed to kill the grendelkin outright, but hopefully it would blind and distract the beast enough to let Gard get in the killing blow...  ... ...I realized I might as well have hit him with the stream of water from a garden hose, for all the effect the fire had on him." (pg. 139, hardback.)

           

FWIW, this sounds more like a really good defense based an old age/lots of power rather than an outsider immunity. I think neuorvore's distinction between the two is accurate.   

[Elegast]

The problem with the "ocean of cold, cold power" quote is that it's equally interpretable as "outsider immunity" and "ancient winter fae immunity." We already know the Scarecrow is an ancient, powerful, Winter fae, so that seems the simpler explanation.

Yes. Here is the quote about Raith:

I reached out through the cane for Lord Raith-
And felt nothing. Not just empty air and drifting dust, but nothing. A cold and somehow hungry emptiness that filled the space where he should have been. I'd felt something like it before, when I'd been near a mote of one of the deadliest substances that any world of flesh or spirit had ever known. My power, my magic, the flowing spirit of life, just vanished into it without getting near Raith.
I couldn't touch him. The void around him was so absolute, I knew without needing to doubt that there was nothing in my arsenal of arcane skills that could affect him

[Thork]

Yeah. When you add in that there's no "void" described around the Scarecrow, and that summer fire DOES reach him, it seems more that he's just filled with "cold cold power" from ancient Winter.  I think the fetch/outsider connection is the core error assumption that Jim was commenting on in Neurovore's theory.

[TheCuriousFan]

Yeah. When you add in that there's no "void" described around the Scarecrow, and that summer fire DOES reach him, it seems more that he's just filled with "cold cold power" from ancient Winter.  I think the fetch/outsider connection is the core error assumption that Jim was commenting on in Neurovore's theory.

We know that if you throw enough magic at an Outsider, even they will be affected, the Summer Fire could have just been enough magic to get around it, it was enough to destroy the Winter wellspring.

[Ms Duck]

We know that if you throw enough magic at an Outsider, even they will be affected, the Summer Fire could have just been enough magic to get around it, it was enough to destroy the Winter wellspring.

let me nail this one to the door if I may,b ecause I beleive we can disprove ' cpt kudzu had outsider help ' quite nicely.

the argument seems to be he is magic imune, but not  summer fire imune, and this makes him an outsider. The problem is, there is no eveidence that strong sidhe magic hurts outsiders, and some that it does not:

1- Lea could not take on HWWB, but harry could, and he did not need to use summer fire to do so; his ordinary magic was more than enough.  So its not sidhe magic, its outsider bane magic that hurts outsiders.

After Harry defeated He Who Walks Behind, how did he make contact with the Leanandsidhe to bargain for the power to face Justin DuMorne? I think that’s the only part of that story you haven’t covered yet.
With relative simplicity, since she’d basically been lurking about near him, unseen, from the time he was born.
She judged everything that had happened to him a valuable learning experience, up until the point where DuMorne wanted to break into his skull. She couldn’t take on the Walker directly, but once that obstacle was out of the way, she appeared to ickle Harry right quick.

therefore, ahrry's ordianry fire should have hurt CK if he was outsider, and the summer fire not. Sinc ethe opposite is true, i deduce that CK wa sprotected by winter magic.

2. Lord Raith was still breathing in BR. Now, I believe that Lea loved Maggie, as much as a sidhe can. LR killed Maggie, and Lea did not seek revenge? Eb mentioned he treid to kill LR several times but failed, I suspect lea did as well.

now, on to the other point:

Mab as orchestrator of all is just a little much for me to swallow.  Seems like she loses a lot more than she gains, and I don't think Mab is big on coming out behind in her negotiations. 



Yeah.  It sure looks that way from here, don't it.

But to correct some minor stuff:  the fetches aren't even /close/ to her strongest servitors.  They're her couriers, harassers, spies and occasional assassins.  Captain Kudzu was a being that was deemed more-or-less sufficient on the badassometer, but nothing to write home about.  The fetches main use, to Mab, isn't as battlefield thugs.  She's got /plenty/ of other things for that.  Another mild correction:  who says Mab /lost/ the battle at Arctis Tor, before Harry and Company arrived?  At the end of the day, the Winter Queen was still in her fortress--but you didn't see anyone standing around assaulting the place, did ya.   Also, it has probably occurred to more than one of you that if Mab was /really/ in trouble, she could have had the entire military might of Faerie back at the fortress in moments--exactly the way they *did* come back when Harry smacked the Winter Well with the fires of Summer.

(Which goes to show that while Mab may be canny to an inhuman degree, she isn't infallible.  Just way closer to infallible than us.)

See above regarding "the question is *why*?" 

Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in.  What chain of events did that set in motion?  What secondary effects came about because of it?  Ultimately, Mab can always go to the Wyld and draw in more muscle to replace fallen thugs.  If worst comes to worst, with just a few "seed" fae, she could rear up enough Changelings to repopulate her cadre within a human generation or two--nothing, to a being thousands of years old. 

As far as she's concerned, everyone and everything is expendable, including herself, when it comes to adhering to her (seemingly irrational and inexplicable) priorities. 

(And by the way--don't think Titania is much better.  When push came to shove, she let her own daughter be murdered rather than upset the balance of the Faerie Courts.  At least Mab is up front about it.  Usually.)

Sacrifice her best troops?  Mab would sacrifice every creature *in* Winter, every one she could bring from Summer, and every single mortal on planet Earth if that's what she thought was appropriate.  And she wouldn't even need to add extra sugar to her cup of tea afterwards, much less lose sleep over it.

But no one does cold-blooded like the Queen of Winter.  Mab's been in the business a long time, she's got a balance sheet, and she is *not* going to come out in the red--

--unless, of course, she really *has* stripped a gear, as Lily and Maeve believe.  In which case there's a stark raving bonkers demigoddess whose powers are no longer being held in check by the Escher-esque code of Sidhe behavior.  And that's all kinds of bad.

But hey.  It's probably not that.  I mean, not *everything* that happens can be the absolute worst possible possibility, right?

Jim

Jim says that she sacrificed the fetches, and CK in particular. That means CK was hers, all allong.

(of course, it also says that Mab had Molly brought in, that she won the battle of AT, That things happened that she did not quite predict, but it still worked out, and oh yes Mab may be in love with Harry. )

(before people scream about the dagger causing Mab's madness, let me point out that: we have woj that the dagger hurt her, and the reason she cant talk is she's pissed. And it was maeve that sugested she has fallen in love with harry, and then we have lea's comments about love causing madness.)

 

[Elegast]

quote author=TheCuriousFan link=topic=32166.msg1401233#msg1401233 date=1336229704]
We know that if you throw enough magic at an Outsider, even they will be affected, the Summer Fire could have just been enough magic to get around it, it was enough to destroy the Winter wellspring.


let me nail this one to the door if I may,b ecause I beleive we can disprove ' cpt kudzu had outsider help ' quite nicely.

the argument seems to be he is magic imune, but not  summer fire imune, and this makes him an outsider. The problem is, there is no eveidence that strong sidhe magic hurts outsiders, and some that it does not:

1- Lea could not take on HWWB, but harry could, and he did not need to use summer fire to do so; his ordinary magic was more than enough.  So its not sidhe magic, its outsider bane magic that hurts outsiders.

therefore, ahrry's ordianry fire should have hurt CK if he was outsider, and the summer fire not. Sinc ethe opposite is true, i deduce that CK wa sprotected by winter magic.

2. Lord Raith was still breathing in BR. Now, I believe that Lea loved Maggie, as much as a sidhe can. LR killed Maggie, and Lea did not seek revenge? Eb mentioned he treid to kill LR several times but failed, I suspect lea did as well.

now, on to the other point:

Jim says that she sacrificed the fetches, and CK in particular. That means CK was hers, all allong.

(of course, it also says that Mab had Molly brought in, that she won the battle of AT, That things happened that she did not quite predict, but it still worked out, and oh yes Mab may be in love with Harry. )

(before people scream about the dagger causing Mab's madness, let me point out that: we have woj that the dagger hurt her, and the reason she cant talk is she's pissed. And it was maeve that sugested she has fallen in love with harry, and then we have lea's comments about love causing madness.)

 

You're quite convincing. Problem: why did Mab kidnapp Molly? (and no it's not to make Harry attack the well).

[Ms Duck]

We have multiple theories for that one:

(on a 1-7 scale, 7 being unlikely as heck)

7- Molly is Mab. nuff said.

5- Molly is the once and future king. Mab has forseen this. It's Molly's destiny to wield ammorichus in battle against the outsiders.

5- the Oberon connection. It has liitle to do with Molly, and everything to do with harry

3- Mab has considerable powers of foresight, and has foreseen something that at this point we have not geussed.

3- to show her future rival who is boss. (this is also why Mab had Susan killed, and drove Luccio nuts. A sidhe queen, in love, is by definition insane.)

3- Mab has forseen her own death, and has set Molly up to be her heir.

3- none of the above; it has something to do with the whole Mab/ Uriel/ Odin connection

2- Molly was entirely incidental. Mab planned that Erlking, whom she put in charge of winter's armies, would sense Harry's magic and come running. the same result as what happend, just in a different way.

[Elegast]

We have multiple theories for that one:
5- the Oberon connection. It has liitle to do with Molly, and everything to do with harry

Could you explain?

5- Molly is the once and future king. Mab has forseen this. It's Molly's destiny to wield ammorichus in battle against the outsiders.

I thought Jim said he didn't know who will wield amorracchius, and that Molly's destiny could still change.

[Ms Duck]

Could you explain?

I thought Jim said he didn't know who will wield amorracchius, and that Molly's destiny could still change.

I think Jim isnt sure yet of how much of the King arthur to throw in, He probably has several alternative version, depending on how it 'sounds out' when written.

Oberon is the King of the Sidhe, lord of the queens. He is a wizard, and in some versions, was once mortal or is half mortal. he is the son of Morgan Le Fey.

This is one of the classic 'why is Mab obsessed with Harry theories'; He is her future King of myht, long prophecied. It has some evidnece, in tha mab often speaks of harry in the future tense, and so far, has been correct each time.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

1- Lea could not take on HWWB, but harry could, and he did not need to use summer fire to do so; his ordinary magic was more than enough.  So its not sidhe magic, its outsider bane magic that hurts outsiders.

You read that WoJ as saying Lea's magic could not affect HWWB, but I can see several other options.  (It takes a human to summon an outsider so Lea could not get at HWWB.  Lea does not have the free will to go after HWWB unless HWWB does something directly offensive against Faerie.  Lea going after HWWB would start a war between Winter and the Lord of Slowest Terror which would be a really bad thing.)

2. Lord Raith was still breathing in BR. Now, I believe that Lea loved Maggie, as much as a sidhe can. LR killed Maggie, and Lea did not seek revenge?

Whereas to my mind, Lea not coming gunning for Lord R fits with the "Faerie are psychologically alien" perspective, without a specific bargain she has nothing to avenge, and loving Maggie or anyone else is utterly outside Lea's capacities.

[Vairelome]

(before people scream about the dagger causing Mab's madness, let me point out that: we have woj that the dagger hurt her, and the reason she cant talk is she's pissed. And it was maeve that sugested she has fallen in love with harry, and then we have lea's comments about love causing madness.)

Actually, I believe the WoJ was merely confirming a reader theory that Mab was injured (cause unspecified), not that the dagger had hurt her.  I have a pet theory that the Mab/Lea/athame plotline is shaped more or less as follows:

1)  There exists some dire threat to Winter that Lea knows about.  She also knows that Mab considers that threat to be out of Lea's league to handle.
2)  Lea gets the athame (WoJ: "a vector of power").  Enter hubris: Lea decides that with the athame, she can deal a decisive blow to the aforementioned dire threat.
3)  Not surprisingly, Mab was right.  Even with the athame, Lea is outmatched and gets stomped.
4)  Mab is unwilling to lose her right-hand Sidhe-devil and comes to the rescue; in the process of extracting Lea from the dire threat, Mab is injured.
5)  Lea's imprisonment/"therapy" in the frozen garden of Arctis Tor serves as both punishment for her hubris and some form of cleansing from whatever injury/corruption/bad juju Lea had suffered at the hands of the dire threat.

Assumptions/consequences of the above theory:
1)  Lea was never disloyal to Mab/Winter.  She stepped outside of her proper limits, in defiance of Mab's express or implied wishes, but her "sense of fealty" was always in the right place.  While I got the impression that Mab was not pleased with Lea, I never caught a hint that she regarded Lea as untrustworthy in the back-stabby sense.
2)  The only corrupting aspect of the athame is the hubris/overconfidence that comes with any possession of great power.  If I remember correctly, a Green Lantern Ring isn't corrupting by nature, but I'd bet the overwhelming majority of people would do something they would later regret if they got hold of one.

Bonus guess:  The Fomor recently showed up as the ancient enemies of the Fae.  Maybe the "dire threat" in my theory is related to the Fomor?  Assuming that the Fomor are the Red Court's successors as the BC meat puppets, that might provide an Outsider linkage to Mab and/or Lea's injuries.

[Ms Duck]

Does anyone have a searchable copy of the df? I dont have my books, but there is a quote in sk where lea talks about how much she cared for maggie, and one in gp where she talks about how long they were together. Also the comment in pg where maeve talks about love majing the sidhe insane.