PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.

[Elegast]

This is pre-CD speculation about PG. The OP is a summary of previous theories made by Knnn and Neurovore. The following discussion is strong, featuring Neuro, Knnn and MsDuck, our three PG experts.
-Elegast


This is yet another thread about PG. However, PG, along with SmF, is the most important/mysterious book so I don't feel so guilty about starting it. 

Knnn and Neurovore have already written magnificent posts explaining PG. Problem: the two are not compatible, and we have WOJ that Neurovore made a wrong assumption. I'll try to combine the two.

For reference, here is Neurovore's post:DF: The Madness of Queen Mab - PG-focused, SmurF spoilers
Knnn's post: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)

Let's begin with a few facts from the two posts:

We know Lea gets the athame in GP.  We know she is carrying it in SK.  We know that Mab is carrying it in DB and has at that point had to contain Lea.  We know that as of PG Mab seems erratic and Lea is clearly completely Upminster*.  It seems a reasonable working hypothesis that the athame is a vector for crazyness.

We also know the athame comes from Cowl.  So it seems a reasonable working hypothesis that the power it conveys is Outsider-based.

We know Aurora's nuts in SK.  We also know we have not seen Titania on stage yet and it would be surprising were there not a reason for this.

[As I see it, the options for what's going on with Summer are
a) whoever is behind the athame has their hooks in Summer too
b) Summer has gone looking for a non-Faerie power source to keep the balance against Winter having the athame and picked a different dark and nasty one.  The Denarians seem a reasonable choice here.]

Big outstanding question here; if the athame drove Lea mad, enough that Mab had to forcibly subdue her, why on Earth is Mab carrying it around rather than burying it in a deep dark hole ?

The explanation that seems to make most sense to me is, because she has no choice.  Because Lea, under the influence of the athame, has made some sort of commitments which Mab, in binding Lea, is bound to fulfil. As she explains in DB she has to in the case of Lea's godmotherly commitments to Harry.

The Gatekeeper:

The mystery of PG really starts with the Gatekeeper and his cryptic warning to Harry about "Black Magic" in Chicago.   Bob comes up with the interpretation that the Gatekeeper cannot give any more information because it will lead to paradoxeggedon - i.e. that even more black magic is potentially coming to Chicago and this warning is the best the Gatekeeper can do.

But when you think about it, other than Molly's mind-control stuff, is there any other Black Magic going on in Chicago?  What exactly is the Gatekeeper trying to prevent?  Initially, Harry thinks that the psychic mauling of Pell (the theater owner) is black magic, but this turns out to merely be a Fetch.  Somehow, this feels more "animalistic" to me rather than "evil".  Is the blackout that the Fetch induced any more "black magic" than the Myrk that the Hobs bring during SmF?

The other (and to me, more plausible) explanation is of course that the Gatekeeper is foreseeing Molly's greased (by the mind control she's already attempted) slide into black magic, and is getting Harry to prevent that.

Which leads me to my next point...

Black Council actions in PG:

Talk to anyone about BC activity in Proven Guilty and they'll immediately think about the attack on Arctis Tor.  It was swift, powerful, and it very clearly implied that there were forces at work that had their own agenda.  However, two things always bothered me:

1) The frontal assault

The BC is a group that has consistently worked from the shadows and through layers of cats-paws.  Why would they conduct a full-scale frontal assault on one of the most powerful creatures in the DV in her place of power (i.e. we've seen that Erlking thought he had a chance against her should she be summoned to his domain)?  Furthermore, we have the WoJ that any assault by the like of Namshiel would not only be defeated, but utterly crushed.  Sanya excepted, why would any intelligent creature (and nigh-immortals count, certainly once they are at least a century old) pursue such a futile course of action?  This smacks as either desperation (i.e. Harry), or temporary insanity (i.e. Harry).

I've seen the various theories that they had some hold or bargain over Mab, or that maybe this was a strike to remove the Athame from Mab's possession (heck, I made that one myself at some point), but then this never really explained why Harry needed to come to Arctis Tor - the real attack was already defeated.

2) BC in Chicago:

Fact is, we have circumstantial evidence of Black Council activity in Chicago during PG:

- Madrigal is a known cats-paw for the BC.  Someone invited him over a year before the convention started.  Speculation is that he covering for **something**

- Sandra Marlin is the one who gets Molly thinking about using magical fear to stop a drug addiction.  She also used to work at a homeless shelter (Marva warning bells here).  If we believe the RPG as cannon, she also disappeared shortly after the events of PG.

Theory: The BC was trying to turn Molly.
Here are Knnn's arguments, I believe them to be right:

The answer struck me that the whole PG story might just have been an attempt to "turn" Molly.

Consider that:

- We've already seen that the general BC mode of operation is to give powerful-but-dangerous black magic tools to various people and let them run loose: 

- Victor Sells
- Hexunwulf FBI
- Kravos

...you might also include the Athame, the device from Love Hurts, and possibly even the Word of Kemmler itself.

Now we have Molly, who unlike Victor Sells, actually has the power to make the White Council, and she's rebellious enough to be touched by darkness.  All one needs to do is to nudge her in the right direction and give her a bit a of power and she could make a scary diversion from whatever you're trying to actually accomplish.  For extra points:

- If Marva is on the BC, corrupting the daughter of the guy who "killed your children" is certainly a bonus.
- If you are a Denarian (Namshiel?), then getting the magically-powered daughter of a Knight to take up a coin is certainly a bonus.
- Maybe Molly is special (I'll speculate more about this at the end)

As a last thought, consider the following:

If Harry hadn't stepped in and taken Molly to her parents, she would have gone with Nelson to greet "Darby Crane".  Given who he really is and Molly's looks, don't you think he would have tried (and probably succeeded) to "shake hands" with her?  If he did shake hands, isn't it a reasonable assumption that he would have realized her potential, given his ability to feed on fear and Molly's recent fear-inducing magic?

Theory: Mab never intended Harry to pour summer fire in the well.
Knnn's argues that a WOJ strongly implies it, Serack agrees, Neurovore doesn't. I feel that Knnn is right. Here is the WOJ in question:

  Also, it has probably occurred to more than one of you that if Mab was /really/ in trouble, she could have had the entire military might of Faerie back at the fortress in moments--exactly the way they *did* come back when Harry smacked the Winter Well with the fires of Summer.

(Which goes to show that while Mab may be canny to an inhuman degree, she isn't infallible.  Just way closer to infallible than us.)

Theory: The BC attacked Artis Tor to save mad Lea.
EDIT: I made some mistakes in this part about Neurovore's theories concerning the Artis Tor attack.

Then we have the attack on Arctis Tor. Neurovore believed at one point that it was under orders from Summer in order to let Harry come in. I think Neurovore made the mistake Jim is talking about when Neurovore assumed the denarians are working for Titania. Later Neurovore proposed this explanation, which I believe to be right:

The real "attack" on Winter is via the means of the athame, warping Mab and Lea, and possibly also via the means of Lea being required to make bargains that are not for Winter's good (like swapping the athame for Amoracchius in the first place).  The Scarecrow a) has power entirely outside the nature of any of the other Fetches, which Harry identifies at the end of PG as "Black Council" modus operandi and b) has Harry's power fade out when it somes to near, in ways much more similar to Lord Raith's Outsider-backed immunity in BR than to just being too strong for it (cf. Ursiel in DM, "Grum" in SK).  This leads me to suspect the Scarecrow is an Outsider-plus-allies agent who has the run of Arctis Tor.

The frontal assault by some Denarian - supposedly Namshiel though Mab avoids confirming this directly and makes great effort to distract Harry when he suggests it - is a rescue mission.  The whole point is to blow away enough goblins and trolls that Harry and company have a hope of getting into Arctis Tor. 

Theory: The scarecrow is boosted by Outsider power.
This is Neurovore's hypothesis. I believe it's the smartest part of Neurovore's theory, and the one which led Jim to ask:

Dear god.  Are you a CIA analyst or something?

Now some may doubt it, but remember: Mab needs a motive for kidnapping Molly, and according to a WOJ, the damage to the Winter Well was not planned. Here are Neurovore's arguments:

The Scarecrow is a "Black Council" agent - in this case a Circle agent.

Compare, Harry, p.476 of PG pb: "Consider all these things running around with more power than they should have had."  With p.366 ibid "This thing was no fetch, no changer of form and image and illusion. There was no shadowy mask over an amorphous form, no glamour altering its appearance, which my salve would have enabled me to see through.  This thing was a whole independent creature.  Except maybe it was a fetch so old and strong... "  (Emphasis mine.)  The "old strong fetch" theory is not what one might call confirmed.

Compare also, p. 368 ibid, "A lance of flame as thick as my wrist lashed out from the tip of the rod - and died two feet away from it, the burning energy of the strike swallowed by an unfathomable ocean of cold cold power."  That's not how entities toughing it out against Harry's fire from sheer resilience behave - see Grum in Reuel's apartment in SK, see Ursiel in DM.  What it is reminiscent of is Lord Raith's immunity to magic. Which we are pretty certain is Outsider based, which leads back to the Circle again.

The Scarecrow is an entity that has been let into Arctis Tor by some agreement Mab is held to under duress.  Mab's motivation in manipulating Harry is not only to get Summer to flatten the Reds, but also to be rid of the Scarecrow in a deniable way.

To play devil's advocate to myself, and expand from a line of reasoning JRBobC was suggesting in the other thread:

Suppose the Scarecrow is only an old strong fetch.  Suppose Mab is willing to sacrifice it for the sake of getting Summer to flatten the Reds.  Suppose the Circle have nothing directly to do with anything in PG.  It holds together pretty much equally well, if you don't find the observations I make above convincing, and leaves the athame-vectored craziness as a separate piece of plotting entirely.

There is also the other element of how Harry got into Arctis Tor to consider in each case.  There's nothing defending Arctis Tor but some fetches, because something, armed with Hellfire, took out a small army of goblins and a pack of trolls. 

(Given that Harry knows Hellfire, I think we can rule out the Scarecrow's unfetchlike powers being Denarian-based, fwiw.)

The theory in the spoiler tag is completely wrong. -Elegast

(click to show/hide)

Theory: Mab made a deal with the BC.
Now this my own part. I assume that the previous four statements are correct.

The Scarecrow is outsider infected, Mab wants to destroy it, yet she has to so through Harry. That's seems to indicate that the Scarecrow didn't betray Mab. If he had, like Slate, Mab could have crushed him. If he had been possessed, like Lea, Mab could have frozen him. She did neither. I conclude that the Scarecrow received his power with Mab's consent, so as his liege she can't punish/kill him.

I see the athame as further proof: the sidhe have no qualm about using outsider power if they can.

However, Mab and Lea quickly discover that they have been conned. Mab imprisons Lea, and brings an outsiderbane to destroy the Scarecrow.

Additionally, that theory explains why Mab was not attacking the vampires; she had made a deal that she could not broke.

Some rules about this thread
Plz refrain from talking about

• Little Chicago
• Molly = Mab

WOJ about PG

Yeah.  It sure looks that way from here, don't it.

But to correct some minor stuff:  the fetches aren't even /close/ to her strongest servitors.  They're her couriers, harassers, spies and occasional assassins.  Captain Kudzu was a being that was deemed more-or-less sufficient on the badassometer, but nothing to write home about.  The fetches main use, to Mab, isn't as battlefield thugs.  She's got /plenty/ of other things for that.  Another mild correction:  who says Mab /lost/ the battle at Arctis Tor, before Harry and Company arrived?  At the end of the day, the Winter Queen was still in her fortress--but you didn't see anyone standing around assaulting the place, did ya.   Also, it has probably occurred to more than one of you that if Mab was /really/ in trouble, she could have had the entire military might of Faerie back at the fortress in moments--exactly the way they *did* come back when Harry smacked the Winter Well with the fires of Summer.

(Which goes to show that while Mab may be canny to an inhuman degree, she isn't infallible.  Just way closer to infallible than us.)

See above regarding "the question is *why*?" 

Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in.  What chain of events did that set in motion?  What secondary effects came about because of it?  Ultimately, Mab can always go to the Wyld and draw in more muscle to replace fallen thugs.  If worst comes to worst, with just a few "seed" fae, she could rear up enough Changelings to repopulate her cadre within a human generation or two--nothing, to a being thousands of years old. 

As far as she's concerned, everyone and everything is expendable, including herself, when it comes to adhering to her (seemingly irrational and inexplicable) priorities.

(And by the way--don't think Titania is much better.  When push came to shove, she let her own daughter be murdered rather than upset the balance of the Faerie Courts.  At least Mab is up front about it.  Usually.)

Sacrifice her best troops?  Mab would sacrifice every creature *in* Winter, every one she could bring from Summer, and every single mortal on planet Earth if that's what she thought was appropriate.  And she wouldn't even need to add extra sugar to her cup of tea afterwards, much less lose sleep over it.

But no one does cold-blooded like the Queen of Winter.  Mab's been in the business a long time, she's got a balance sheet, and she is *not* going to come out in the red--

--unless, of course, she really *has* stripped a gear, as Lily and Maeve believe.  In which case there's a stark raving bonkers demigoddess whose powers are no longer being held in check by the Escher-esque code of Sidhe behavior.  And that's all kinds of bad.

But hey.  It's probably not that.  I mean, not *everything* that happens can be the absolute worst possible possibility, right?

Jim

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Thank you for the kind words, though I am still not a "he".  (And if I ever publish any fiction of my own, I am so going to pester Jim to let me put that CIA analyst comment on the cover.)

Jim made a comment shortly after the post of mine you quote to the effect that Mab was wounded rather than crazy; which has led me to work subsequently on the basis that the confirmed mistake in this hypothesis was the nature of what the athame did to Mab and Lea, but does not seem to me to undermine much of the rest of the logic wrt what's going on in PG specifically.

Also, as a minor quibble, I'm not specifically arguing that the Denarians attacking Arctis Tor were working for Titania, merely that the point of their attack is to aid Harry and team's entry; Titania is one option for that, but given the WoJ about how much Mab would be willing to sacrifice for her goals, I can equally well see them working for Mab directly.

Also, the thought of a knnneurovore is really kind of intimidating.

[Elegast]

Also, as a minor quibble, I'm not specifically arguing that the Denarians attacking Arctis Tor were working for Titania, merely that the point of their attack is to aid Harry and team's entry; Titania is one option for that, but given the WoJ about how much Mab would be willing to sacrifice for her goals, I can equally well see them working for Mab directly.

Uhm...yes. I misunderstood your comments. Trying to find a way to edit.

Also, the thought of a knnneurovore is really kind of intimidating.

It's the ultimate hybrid which will solve the entire DF in one monster post:

An adult knnneurovore: note Knnn's teeth and Neurovore's brain

[Ms Duck]

Plz refrain from talking about
•Little Chicago
•Molly = Mab

so..me?

 

my interpretation is a bit different:

in semi chronological order:
-Mab foresses some great doom, coming to either winter in specific or the earth in general
-she intends to create a new knight to fight this
-and wants Harry
-Lea agrees with the need, but disagrees with the plan, because she loves Harry as her son
- lea then makes a deal with the black council, to 'avoid this doom'
-deal is sealed with an athame,which is cursed
-Mab discovers this, and puts lea in the hospital to cleanse her
-unfortunatley, by sidhe law, that means mab is now bound by lea's deal as lea's proxy
- only way to get out of it is to have them break it for her
-as this all involves foresight, mab cannot act directly
- so she sets up PG, to put Harry into play
-the BC attack on AT is an attempt to kill Mab, its a trap she set for them, as they think shes weakened by the curse (this gets her out of her proxy deal)
- she allways planned for ahrry to do somethign which would get winters attention, and draw her troops in, leaving summer free to attack the reds. That is why she put the erlking in charge, sinc eshe knew he wanted harry bad. the exact method (summer fire) may have been a surprise, but not the result

[Elegast]

- she allways planned for ahrry to do somethign which would get winters attention, and draw her troops in, leaving summer free to attack the reds. That is why she put the erlking in charge, sinc eshe knew he wanted harry bad. the exact method (summer fire) may have been a surprise, but not the result

Only attacking the well would draw her troops in. And she hadn't planned for it (nearly WOJ).

[Arjan]

Thank you for the kind words, though I am still not a "he". 

Nice picture. Definitely a "she" 

[Ms Duck]

Only attacking the well would draw her troops in. And she hadn't planned for it (nearly WOJ).

well thats the rub, then, hmm? she needs to get the troops back home, vut cannot summon them herself, likely because of the proxy agreement lea had. Either there were other methods of harry doing so, or there is another inertpretation of that woj.

perhaps the door to the tower was rigged with an alarm, that went off when it was broken with an iron hammer? if its a standinf defense, it would count as her not breaking her proxy, and, the troops showed up ridiculouly fast at the end. If the door had gone off, and they spent 15 minutes charging in, and harry only heard the horn when they got close, it would explain things.

also note Mab winked at harry when he left. the fire in the well may have stung, but i dont think it hurt that much.

Nice picture. Definitely a "she" 

actually, Neuro prefers 'undefined.' I just call Neuro 'my friend' and leave it at that.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

An adult knnneurovore: note Knnn's teeth and Neurovore's brain

..actually, "PredAlien" is an awfully unwieldy name for that thing in the picture. How about a neater and more elegant combination of the two names, like "PrAline" ?

(I've just had a filling and most of my mouth is numb, so I'm certainly slobbering enough for the part, right now.)

[Cenphx]

All this has led me to a somewhat small conundrum: if Harry was the key Mab needed to fight Captain Kudzu, because Kudzu is outsider-boosted, why is it summer's fire that was the key to wounding him? It seems like some sort of outsiderbane-ness should have been the deciding factor, which was what made Harry important to the equation, rather than summer's fire which did the trick. I'm not debating the point that Captain Kudzu was outsider boosted--I think the arguments on that fact are compelling. I know this is a small point to the overall arguments, which are impressive, but I am trying to digest it all....

[Ms Duck]

Thats the piece i doubt the most. We have woj the fetches were sacrificed, and a very small sacrifice for mab. So hes not outsider anything.

[xakko]

All this has led me to a somewhat small conundrum: if Harry was the key Mab needed to fight Captain Kudzu, because Kudzu is outsider-boosted, why is it summer's fire that was the key to wounding him? It seems like some sort of outsiderbane-ness should have been the deciding factor, which was what made Harry important to the equation, rather than summer's fire which did the trick. I'm not debating the point that Captain Kudzu was outsider boosted--I think the arguments on that fact are compelling. I know this is a small point to the overall arguments, which are impressive, but I am trying to digest it all....

The Outsider magic resistance may be related to mortal magic.  Maybe summer fire is something else entirely?  It is totally inimical to Winter, certainly, and would certainly have injured the fetch seriously if it had no such protection. 

I don't suppose Papa Raith would like to go ten rounds with Lea to test this theory?  If he lasts more than three seconds, we can assume his magic protection extends to the Sidhe...

[Elegast]

Thats the piece i doubt the most. We have woj the fetches were sacrificed, and a very small sacrifice for mab. So hes not outsider anything.

I know this is far-fetched ( ), but if Mab didn't intended Harry to pour fire in the well, and didn't want him to kill the Scarecrow, then why did she took Molly in the first place?

[Cenphx]

Thats the piece i doubt the most. We have woj the fetches were sacrificed, and a very small sacrifice for mab. So hes not outsider anything.

LOTS of fetches died in PG. The WoJ could be referring to her deliberate loss of the other fetches.

[Thork]

Just as an aside, there really needs to be an abbreviation for "black council" that isn't "bc" because every time I see BC I think "Black Court." Except when people mean "black court," in which case I think they mean "black circle." Aaaaarg!

I'm not sure I buy that the Fetch has outsider power; it's certainly possible, but it also seems possible that it just has very, very, deep Winter power as an Ancient fae -- that its immunity to magic is just like the immunity that we're told Ogres have in Summer Knight. (I admit outsider power is a possibility, but I think it less likely; we can explain "cold cold power" as Winter, after all, without necessarily explaining it as Outsider, and that explains why Summer Fire was able to burn it). I think this is the assumption that Jim said was "off."

I agree that much of proven guilty was a plot by the Circle to subvert molly (for all the reasons listed, and also because Dresden might end up committing Suicide By Morgan if Molly went to the White Council Headsman and he couldn't stop it); I think the latter portion was a plot by Mab to subvert Harry, and perhaps ultimately to get him into a position where he'd have to agree to be Winter Knight in exchange for Molly's freedom.

I like the idea that Lea made a deal with the Circle. It even seems likely -- we know that MGLefay Dresden was associated with the Circle, and Lea was the Fae she chose to protect her son, so maybe Lea was also associated somehow (indirectly?) with the Circle. If Lea had made such a bargain, Mab might be bound by it while Lea was imprisoned. It also helps explain why Lea was associated enough with Bianca, Mavra, etc., to get invited to the Banquet; after all, there was no representative of Summer there (at least as far as we know?)

I think the purpose of Kaptain Kudzu was just to harass Harry enough to kick his ass and make him take Winter Knight, but Mab underestimated Harry's resourcefulness.

There are still a number of questions about PG that I've never seen any good discussion of, much less answers for. Who goes back and locks up Pell's theater for him while he's in the hospital?


Hrm. Perhaps the attack on Arctis Tor was an attempt to recover the Athame, after it became clear that Mab was containing its contagion?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I'm not sure I buy that the Fetch has outsider power; it's certainly possible, but it also seems possible that it just has very, very, deep Winter power as an Ancient fae -- that its immunity to magic is just like the immunity that we're told Ogres have in Summer Knight.

Why then would it not look like a fetch under glamour-breaking ointmentovision ?

I think the latter portion was a plot by Mab to subvert Harry, and perhaps ultimately to get him into a position where he'd have to agree to be Winter Knight in exchange for Molly's freedom.

I'm of the opinion that pretty much whatever else is going on, Mab is avoiding talking to Harry there, because if she did, he could say "I'm in the middle of doing you a massive favour here, please take it off my account."