[spoilers for PG] I think Harry Fixed Little Chicago

[knnn]

I've always wondered whether the logical place to fit in a time-travelling Harry story around the events of a previous book would be DB; the bit in Mort's place where the ghosts of Chicago identify six loci of necromantic activity, only some of which correlate with known plot points, reads to me like it might be set-up for there to be other more discreet Kemmlerites in town whom future-Harry's intervention is necessitated to prevent interference with the events that already happened.

Interesting notion.  It might also fit in with the GS-DB discrepancies regarding Morty's house and haircut.

 

[kingcrow15]

I'm betting that Jim has been leaving threads that where often shrugged off by harry as being luck but where really future harry watching out for himself, as for why harry doesn't fix everything, I assume that he will have a limited number of time jumps available to him that would mean he has to put a lot of thought into where and when he goes. i'm really looking forward to it.

[knnn]

I'm betting that Jim has been leaving threads that where often shrugged off by harry as being luck but where really future harry watching out for himself, as for why harry doesn't fix everything, I assume that he will have a limited number of time jumps available to him that would mean he has to put a lot of thought into where and when he goes. i'm really looking forward to it.

Indeed.

The question is to predict where he will put it:

- As I mentioned above, I feel LC is a very likely place.
- DB and Morty is an intriguing possibility.
- Those missing minutes at the end of Changes might be an option.

Any others?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

- As I mentioned above, I feel LC is a very likely place.
- DB and Morty is an intriguing possibility.
- Those missing minutes at the end of Changes might be an option.
Any others?

Highly speculative; just before TC, and Harry's headache there is from a mental block he put on himself not to remember it, a la the headaches that hit him in SmF when he sees any combat fire magic, between the time Mab takes away his memories of combat fire magic and the time he gets them back.  (One of them is in the Shedd, in the description of multiple Denarians attacking Ivy, and I think there's another in there but can't recall where.)

[areid2]

At some point in the story I think Harry attacks himself after time travelling. We know someone has altered his mind and there is significant evidence of altered timelines. What if Harry avoids paradoxagedden by attacking his younger self, winning and then wiping the memory. Future Harry is so strong that it could be done with minimal injury. Is there any evidence in any of the books of Harry getting injuries without it being in the book?

[Cozarkian]

What we think we see in PG appear to be "nudges" done with great care.

This is a huge problem I have with the Harry time-travel theories as expressed.

First, <Watson Hat> Harry (or anyone else for that matter) going back in time for the purpose of preventing Harry from being injured is not nudging, it is direct action that changes the past. It would be the equivalent of the Gatekeeper going back in time to stop Molly from using black magic in the first place, rather than having Eb warn Harry that there is black magic being used in Chicago. It would be the equivalent of Harry saving the two girls at Splattercon! or going back in time to prevent Maggie Jr. from being kidnapped.

Second, <Doyle Hat> a story written for the exclusive purpose of explaining something in a prior book is lame. The explanation of what happened in the past book has to be relevant to the successful conclusion of the current book. Thus, no future book is going to tell the story of Harry going back in time to save himself, solely for the purpose of explaining the events of a past book.

There is a solution to both of these problems, fixing LC cannot be the purpose of any future time travel, it has to be something that happens incidental to the true goal of the time travel. The story would go as follows: in Book ##, Harry needs to accomplish task "x". In order to do so successfully, he needs LC, but as we all know, LC was destroyed in Changes. Thus, Harry goes back in time for the purpose of using LC to get the information he needs to accomplish task "x" in the future. He shows up at the apartment, heads down to the basement to use LC and sees a huge gaping flaw. He fixes it, chuckles when he realizes he just created and solved his own mystery, and proceeds to use LC for whatever it is he needed it for, then returns to the present time of Book ##. This also explains why Thomas is freaked out in PG (thanks Serack). Either Thomas is there when Harry shows up and finds future Harry disturbing or, Thomas thinks Harry is already home when PG Harry shows up at the door, and can't figure out how Harry snuck out of the basement without him hearing.

Now, here's my problem <Doyle Hat> with the above story solution: It's boring. JB could write a compelling story about Harry going back in time to use LC to accomplish future task "x" and completely freaking the crap out of Thomas, but throwing in - I also saved my own life - is boring and parallel to a major storyline in the Harrry Potter books. 

The only solution that solves both the "no direct action" and "it's boring" problems is for LC to have been fixed by someone other than a time traveler.

2) As such, the only thing you can actually accomplish with time travel is something that already happened.  If you kill someone in the past, then historically (your timeline), he must have been killed by you as well.

That argument is completely circular. How do we know future Harry can fix LC - because he already did. How do we know future Harry can't go back in time and make Molly his apprentice - because we already know he didn't. If LC was already fixed in the past, then there is no need for future Harry to time travel to fix it.

If Harry can go back in time and instruct Bob to mention to past Harry that LC was fixed for the purpose of causing Harry to go back in time to fix LC, then why can't future go back in time and instruct Bob to start up a discussion about that time he and Susan got dirty and start wondering if half-vamps can still get pregnant, causing Harry to give Susan a call and find out about Maggie Jr. long before the events of Changes. Under your theory, the only reason Harry can't do that is because he didn't do that, but the only reason we know he didn't do that is because JB chose to write it that way.

[Ms Duck]

The only time travel i see harry doing is either alternate time travel ( mirror mirror) or far future / past time travel. It would be neat for example, for harry to get lost in time, save a young woman in the stone age only to return home and discover that his lost it time love is mab, and shes been waiting for him for 70,000 years. Explains why shes a bit stressed .

[knnn]

First, <Watson Hat> Harry (or anyone else for that matter) going back in time for the purpose of preventing Harry from being injured is not nudging, it is direct action that changes the past.

Not quite sure what your point is -- I thought the whole point of my interpretation is that by doing it this (fixing, but not leaving evidence) you are not in fact changing the past.

Second, <Doyle Hat> a story written for the exclusive purpose of explaining something in a prior book is lame. The explanation of what happened in the past book has to be relevant to the successful conclusion of the current book. Thus, no future book is going to tell the story of Harry going back in time to save himself, solely for the purpose of explaining the events of a past book.

There is a solution to both of these problems, fixing LC cannot be the purpose of any future time travel, it has to be something that happens incidental to the true goal of the time travel.

Actually, this is exactly what I was thinking (and trying to come up with a scenario for) when I wrote the original post.  Thank you for elucidating it so nicely.  Right now (based on the fact that Rashid actually hints strongly about his precog in the book), I'm fingering the Gatekeeper as the person who "sends Harry back for a totally different reason only for Harry to realize he needs to fix LC".

Now, here's my problem <Doyle Hat> with the above story solution: It's boring. JB could write a compelling story about Harry going back in time to use LC to accomplish future task "x" and completely freaking the crap out of Thomas, but throwing in - I also saved my own life - is boring and parallel to a major storyline in the Harrry Potter books. 

That is certainly a valid opinion.  For my part, I have faith in Jim Butcher that he would succeed in making such a story interesting.  Heck, even if it's just a chapter in an otherwise non-related book, I feel it would still be a really cool "AHA" moment in the series.

Besides, the whole time-travel thing in the Potter books was all within the confines of less than half a book (if I recall correctly, the "solution" is presented mere chapters after the problem is shown).  I submit that just the fact that Jim waited numerous books before solving this particular mystery already puts it a cut above the plot of "that other Harry".

That argument is completely circular. How do we know future Harry can fix LC - because he already did. How do we know future Harry can't go back in time and make Molly his apprentice - because we already know he didn't. If LC was already fixed in the past, then there is no need for future Harry to time travel to fix it.

^This^ of course is exactly the problem you run into as soon as you use "my" version of time travel -- I can't think of any way around it.  LC aside, I feel the best starting point for any time travel theory should be one of:

1) Find a less "boring" way to illustrate the travails of time traveling in the DV.
2) Suggest another likely way to explain how time travel works in the Dresdenverse given the sole quote we have from Bob on it.
3) Find a totally different way to fulfill Jim's "A book for every way of breaking the Laws" pseudo-promise.

I would be interested in any suggestions or hints you can find for reasonable alternatives to any of those three points.

[Ms Duck]

I think jim has backded down from that pseudo promise, its entierly possible he wa sonly joking at the time he said it.

his current comment on it is:

Will we ever see Dresden forced into a situation where he may have to jump through time to do something?

That would require him breaking one of the laws of magic, and it's not as though I have seven books outlined, one for each law, or anything. We may, probably, possibly some see such as thing at some point.

this leads me to believe from his phrasing that he has ideas in mind, but has not decided wether or not to use them yet. if he had allready used them ( as the solution for LC) he woudl have done his 'im not tellign you' happy dance, i suspect.

and not that the original posts that said harry would break all the laws  also said he woudl regret it- which where molly/mab came from, btw. If you really want to hurt harry, have him cause hurt to his loved ones.

[Griffyn612]

NO, the exact details about the lea/maggie deal will be revealed around book 19, according to the schedule. There is alsot he issue of why Lea accepted such a deal, what exactly she feels about harry and thomas, and what ehr relationship with maggie was.

I believe she loved maggie, and considers harry and thomas as 'her' kids. there is some evidence for this:

-Lea often refers tot hem as her children, not her god children
-she has gone way beyond what a fariy godmother would be expected to do
- her kiss on thomas scarred him permantly
-the way she rolls her eyes at Eb
- the leandaisdhe of legend was a lover/ dark muse, who would take blood from her loevr sin return for granting them genius

as to the 'harry fixed it' I feel you need some kind of evidence. One thing that is clear, to me, is that Jim loves leaving clues. he wouldn't make something this big- if im right, its affected four novels so far- and not leave clues.

annother poster once told me they had asked JIm who did it, and Jim said ' the clues are out there, you figure it out.' I have looked for that comment, but its not in the offical woj yet, so you may want to take it with a grain of salt.

But still, i believe the truth is out there. 

You have now convinced me that the big death at the end of the casefiles that sets Harry off will be Leah.  If he learns why she's watched out for him, looks upon him as a second mother, only to lose her...  that could be it.  I've read your theories that it'll be Mab, and I know some have speculated it would be Thomas or Eb because they're family, or Murphy due to their bonds.  But losing a second mother figure might just do it.

[Ms Duck]

You have now convinced me that the big death at the end of the casefiles that sets Harry off will be Leah.  If he learns why she's watched out for him, looks upon him as a second mother, only to lose her...  that could be it.  I've read your theories that it'll be Mab, and I know some have speculated it would be Thomas or Eb because they're family, or Murphy due to their bonds.  But losing a second mother figure might just do it.

Hmm, interesting.

I only put Mab as the victim, as I feel thats what the black court is most afraid of.. and when she bites it, they go to war.

must consider...

[Griffyn612]

Hmm, interesting.

I only put Mab as the victim, as I feel thats what the black court is most afraid of.. and when she bites it, they go to war.

must consider...

Yeah, I'm seeing it as a self-sacrifice thing.  Totally shocking Harry, who always thought her protection was self-interest, as opposed to genuine concern for him.  And then she lays down her immortal life to protect him?  Ooh-boy.

[professorangus]

Yeah, I'm seeing it as a self-sacrifice thing.  Totally shocking Harry, who always thought her protection was self-interest, as opposed to genuine concern for him.  And then she lays down her immortal life to protect him?  Ooh-boy.

One word:  Goosebumps

[SerScot]

I don't know.  I like the Fae sort of removed from us.  They look like us, but they are not us.  I'll steal Pat Rothfuss's analogy.  It's like Alcohol and Water.  They look the same but are very, very, different.

[TheCuriousFan]

I don't know.  I like the Fae sort of removed from us.  They look like us, but they are not us.  I'll steal Pat Rothfuss's analogy.  It's like Alcohol and Water.  They look the same but are very, very, different.

They still have similar emotions in part.