WOJ: Hexenwufl solved

[Apollishar]

As far as the Erlking-Wild Hunt-Odin-Marcone theory, is there any evidence to suggest that Odin had an interest in Marcone as early as FM?

[Griffyn612]

I don't think Cowl has to be a Fomor, but he could have received upgrades like a Servitor.  Maybe as part and parcel to working with them, he got some gills.  We've seen where he's willing to do things to power up, like the Darkhallow. 

As for the mold and mildew smell, it could also be that, while not a true Fomor, he could be acting out the roll of a Fomor Knight/Emmisary, in return for shelter and a base of operations, similar to Elaine going to Summer.  The Fomor could give him grunt support if needed, other resources, in exchange for playing a role in their plans.  Not that he would have to buy in to advancing their plans; just as long as they buy that he is. 

As far as the Erlking-Wild Hunt-Odin-Marcone theory, is there any evidence to suggest that Odin had an interest in Marcone as early as FM?

ring the duck-bell.  I don't recall there being anything that early.  The first I recall was with the appearance of Gard in DB.

[Mortax]

As far as the Erlking-Wild Hunt-Odin-Marcone theory, is there any evidence to suggest that Odin had an interest in Marcone as early as FM?

There are several theories out there about Marcone or Hendricks being involved with Odin; or the idea that one of them is one of the old gods who have forgotten who they are.

Saw a REALLY bad movie about that once.  The plot was great, but the acting and effects made it MST3K worthy,

[Shamshiel]

Fair point, but one that might seem stronger to someone raised in Celtic lore. For us ignorant Americans the Fomor are pretty darn esoteric -- most modern fantasy that talks about the Fae doesn't talk about the Fomor (Tolkien, Gaiman, Susannah Clarke, etc.).

If I were going to compare Tolkien's Elves to the Fae - which I wouldn't, as they are different in every imaginable way - I would say that the exiled Noldor would be the equivalent to Fomor. They rebelled against the gods, slew their kin (the Kinslayings were unimaginably wicked in Tolkien's universe; Elves simply did not fight each other let alone kill each other), stole the treasured ships of Teleri to sail across the sea (and then burned them, which was also very evil in context) and wage a doomed war on an evil god while becoming pretty nasty themselves. Indeed, while their war against Morgoth was doomed from the beginning, it fell apart earlier than it might have because of their misdeeds and treachery.

By the time of the Lord of the Rings, Galadriel is the last of the Noldor (edit: Well, there were a couple of others come to think of it, but she was the main one that mattered) in Middle-Earth, and she's ancient indeed - probably only Cirdan, the shipwright you see at the end of the movie, is older, since he was among the first elves that awoke in the world. She was one of the better Noldor, but that scene where she considers taking the Ring shows (by WoT) what her ambition was for thousands of years.

Nevertheless, I feel uncomfortable describing any of the Elves as really evil, like some tales suggest the Fomor are, because they were fundamentally opposed to the one true source of evil, Morgoth. There were no really "bad" Elves - there were some Morgoth was able to enthrall and enslave, but no Elf by his own choice ever served Morgoth or his servant Sauron. Even Feanor and his followers were just really deeply misguided (and later bound, against their will, by their oath - and no, that's not a similarity with Fae, any creature in Middle-Earth would have been bound by an oath like that), but still fundamentally "good" and capable of redemption. And heck, if they hadn't rebelled, the Sindar and Dwarves would have been overrun, mankind would have been lost to Morgoth, and the whole history of Middle-Earth wouldn't have been set in motion.

[King Ash]

If I were going to compare Tolkien's Elves to the Fae - which I wouldn't, as they are different in every imaginable way - I would say that the exiled Noldor would be the equivalent to Fomor. They rebelled against the gods, slew their kin (the Kinslayings were unimaginably wicked in Tolkien's universe; Elves simply did not fight each other let alone kill each other), stole the treasured ships of Teleri to sail across the sea (and then burned them, which was also very evil in context) and wage a doomed war on an evil god while becoming pretty nasty themselves. Indeed, while their war against Morgoth was doomed from the beginning, it fell apart earlier than it might have because of their misdeeds and treachery.

By the time of the Lord of the Rings, Galadriel is the last of the Noldor (edit: Well, there were a couple of others come to think of it, but she was the main one that mattered) in Middle-Earth, and she's ancient indeed - probably only Cirdan, the shipwright you see at the end of the movie, is older, since he was among the first elves that awoke in the world. She was one of the better Noldor, but that scene where she considers taking the Ring shows (by WoT) what her ambition was for thousands of years.

Nevertheless, I feel uncomfortable describing any of the Elves as really evil, like some tales suggest the Fomor are, because they were fundamentally opposed to the one true source of evil, Morgoth. There were no really "bad" Elves - there were some Morgoth was able to enthrall and enslave, but no Elf by his own choice ever served Morgoth or his servant Sauron. Even Feanor and his followers were just really deeply misguided (and later bound, against their will, by their oath - and no, that's not a similarity with Fae, any creature in Middle-Earth would have been bound by an oath like that), but still fundamentally "good" and capable of redemption. And heck, if they hadn't rebelled, the Sindar and Dwarves would have been overrun, mankind would have been lost to Morgoth, and the whole history of Middle-Earth wouldn't have been set in motion.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except about Cirdan. While he is very old, he was almost certainly not one of the the first to awaken. On Tolkien forums they have gone through it and shown that he has parents (cousin to Elwe for example) hence not one of the original elves.

[knnn]

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except about Cirdan. While he is very old, he was almost certainly not one of the the first to awaken. On Tolkien forums they have gone through it and shown that he has parents (cousin to Elwe for example) hence not one of the original elves.

Wouldn't he still be older than Galadriel though?  She is something like third or fourth generation Noldor (daughter of Finarfin?) IRC.

[King Ash]

Yep, he is still older than Galadriel. Cirdan was clearly born before the elves get to Valinar, where as Galadriel was born in Valinar. Cirdan's age is noted in that he has a beard which means that he is in his third cycle of life.

[Shamshiel]

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except about Cirdan. While he is very old, he was almost certainly not one of the the first to awaken. On Tolkien forums they have gone through it and shown that he has parents (cousin to Elwe for example) hence not one of the original elves.

Ah, I don't get around forums much, so I am unfamiliar with the reference. I was aware he was referred to as kin of Olwe and Elwe, but as far as I was aware, the elves who had first awakened considered themselves related to each other (Elwe and Olwe are brothers, for example, but as far as we know had no parents) even in the absence of parents. There's likely some drafts or other sources that I am unfamiliar with, though.

Either way, as you say, he was really, really damn old, and probably at least remembered Cuivienen, which is kind of like being Cain or Abel if not Adam or Eve.

And yeah, that makes him much older than Galadriel, but I believe we don't know by how much, since I don't believe there is an accurate estimation of the golden age of Valinor or when Galadriel was born in it.

[King Ash]

Ah, I don't get around forums much, so I am unfamiliar with the reference. I was aware he was referred to as kin of Olwe and Elwe, but as far as I was aware, the elves who had first awakened considered themselves related to each other (Elwe and Olwe are brothers, for example, but as far as we know had no parents) even in the absence of parents. There's likely some drafts or other sources that I am unfamiliar with, though.

Either way, as you say, he was really, really damn old, and probably at least remembered Cuivienen, which is kind of like being Cain or Abel if not Adam or Eve.

And yeah, that makes him much older than Galadriel, but I believe we don't know by how much, since I don't believe there is an accurate estimation of the golden age of Valinor or when Galadriel was born in it.

As you say Elwe (Thingol) and Olwe were brothers but Cirdan (Nowe) is only accounted as kin. If they all Awoke at the same time then they would all be brothers. Anyway it is fairly certain that Elwe is not one of the first Elves either.

This reply says it better than I could so

Reposted from http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=54569 is my paraphrase of Tar-Elenion's reasoning concerning why Ingwë, Elwë, Olwë and Finwë are not of 'The Unbegotten', amended to show why Nowë (Círdan) is unlikely to be 'Unbegotten' either.

    Although there is no doubt that Círdan is the oldest elf we meet in the LotR, the thread I cited previously (Círdan's Beard )shows that while Círdan may have been born at Cuivienen, he was most probably not one of the original Elves who 'awoke' there.

    The 'Unbegotten' (Elves who originally awoke) awoke each with their respective spouse (hence 144 Elves in 72 pairs). Elwë had to wife Melian and she did not awaken at Cuivienen. Elwë also had two brothers Olwë and Elmo, hence he had parents. Círdan was 'akin' to Elwë and Olwë but was their junior (else He would be King of the Teleri) so is likely not of the 'Unbegotten'. He also seems not to have had a spouse. For completeness, Finwë had to wife Míriel. Míriel had a mother name (Serindë ), and hence a mother. Thus Míriel was born, hence Finwë did not 'Awaken'. Ingwë had a sister (Indis or Indis' mother) and hence had parents, thus he was born and not Unbegotten.

http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=57199

[mdodd]

Geek note. In my copy of The Silmarilian Cirdan is mainly referred to as "The Shipwright".

He does not appear in the listed family trees. I don't have my copy of LotR to hand but looking at the last few pages of The Silmarillion is was he who built the boat that carried Frodo away (which is logical, I guess).

[Ms Duck]

The fomor arent that esoteric: they showed up in illona andrews two years ago, charles de lint before that, and have been hanging around dungeons and dragons for decades. And jims version is a lot closer to the deep ones of lovecraft than the fomor of celtic myth.

[Mortax]

They were also in Shadowrun since 1st ed.  In Tir-Na-Nog and Tir Tarengire