Author Topic: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved  (Read 33763 times)

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2012, 08:12:39 PM »
Yeah, while Cowl was determined to take out Kemmler's people, he still started the ritual after Grevane and Corpsetaker were incapacitated - although you could at least make the argument that he didn't know about Corpsetaker. I think he was determined to get the Darkhallow because he was convinced he needed the power to stop anyone else from doing the same thing, and for his whole stop-death deal. Ciowl believed the world was shortly going to become a dark place, and he probably felt like he needed the power to do what he could.

There's no chance of Cowl being a "good" guy like Michael, but I think it's quite possible he's a "good guy" like, say, the Blackstaff or Kincaid.

EDIT: Although come to think of it, Corpsetaker was not actually dead. Maybe that's what Cowl meant by the only way to be sure he took them out was by using the Darkhallow, he knew they couldn't be killed even if they were killed.

I think he knew that the power gained from that ritual is not enough to 'stop death' anr remake the world into a paradise. Kumori was young and innocent, and bought that nwhole line hook and sinker.
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Offline Phariah

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2012, 08:21:43 PM »
Chapter 8, p98.

"Get your own book, Kemmlerite."
"I have nothing but disdain for the madman Kemmler."

"Is that what you're doing, destroying copies of the book?"
"Time has taken most of them. We have accounted for the rest." (K)

"Is it not enough that Kemmler's disciples could use this knowledge for great evil?"

"Grevane and the Corpsetaker are madmen. They must be stopped."  (K)

"Do you know why Cowl has made a study of necromancy? [...] Necromancy can be turned upon it's nature[.] Life can be served by that dark power, if one's will and purpose are strong."

"Grevane and the Corpsetaker are determined. I intend to beat them to the prize and use it to destroy them. It's the only way to be sure one of those madmen does not become something more terrible than the Earth has ever seen."

Cowl does imply he's met Grevane and Corpsetaker before. But I think it's clear he was never a mole in any meaningful sense of the word, and very unlikely he ever worked with Kemmler, even as a spy.

We saw that Grevane immediately leapt to the conclusion that Dresden too was a Kemmlerite working towards the same purpose as the others just on the basis of Dresden's aura or magic being tainted. It seems fairly clear that Cowl never worked with Kemmler, or was ever any kind of mole - the actual Kemmlerites just assumed he was because he was going for the Darkhallow, so they assumed he was acting in Kemmler's name. In actuality, Cowl intended on stopping them himself - not because he actually wanted the power for himself, but because he was convinced the Darkhallow was going to happen, and it had better be him there rather than one of the crazy Kemmlerites.

That's important because even though Cowl is a student of necromancy, it's clear his aims and purposes are very, very different than Kemmler's. On the other hand, I think it's important to note Cowl never actually used necromancy once, and his apprentice (?) Kumori only used it to revive the dying guy.

Indeed, in DB at least, I'm almost inclined to believe that Cowl was working at cross-purposes to the BC. The BC (we believe, anyway) has taken every opportunity to throw the world into chaos. Cowl not only seemed intent on stopping (world-wide, not Chicago-wide) chaos and destruction in DB, he alerted Dresden to the corruption on the White Council and clearly seemed to oppose it. He refrained from using black magic at all, and Kumori did only once. Those affected by the BC reek with black magic (the hexen wolves, the curses and rituals.) He seemed mostly reasonable, and spared Dresden many times, even though Dresden's stopped BC plot after BC plot. He's even out there burning books written by a known BC operative, Peabody.

Either way, he may have been BC-aligned during DB, but he wasn't a "mole" and it seems unlikely he ever hung out with Kemmler.

Isn't there a WOJ that some of the people we think are bad may not be? Thinking more on it, Cowl also would have eradicated the White Court vampires if not for Dresden, and we simply don't know enough to judge what the athame situation was about, especially in light of Mab's alleged madness.
1- Grevane didn't think Harry was a Kemmlerite. he sensed dark/ necro magic trace in Harry. that is it. not once did he call him a Kemmlerite.

2- Cowl did not imply he met Grevane and CT before, he comes out and says it directly in that chapter i provided. he speaks and works with them.

3- Harry senses the dark magic in Cowl when they meet in front of the bookstore. much like himself. than when Cowl flees he senses a stronger use of the dark magic. also using the Darkhallow is dark magic. why give away yourself using necro magic if you don't need to? it is a tactical decision.

4- Cowl is bonkers. p324 same chapter. H " your the orrect madman for the job."
C, "i do not percieve myself to be mad. but if i were truly mad, would i be able to tell."

5- he considered himself the lesser of the 3 evils. which is a load of bunk since he would be responsible for killing thousands still by finishing the Darkhallow instead of stopping it.

6- he spared Harry?! he would have killed him in at the book store. he killed him by breaking the circle holding Erl knowing he would come back to kill him. he told dresden if he came to the ritual he would kill him.

7- he wasn't going to wipe out the WCV he was going to place Vitto at its head to run it for him.

8- why not tell him the WCouncil is corrupt it will make him not trust them and take away an ally from him if he stops working with them. he tells them the WC will fall perhaps tomorrow. Cowl was planning on gaining that power from the Darkhallow so he basically said he was going to destroy the WC.

9- he was burning the Erl book because he did not want the summoning ritual to be used by someone to stop the Darkhallow. since he had already had the book he knew the ritual.
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Offline Phariah

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2012, 08:36:42 PM »
Cowl evidently believed he couldn't take Grevane or Corpsetaker, or he would have even if his goals had been to start the Darkhallow. Cowl doesn't kill anyone in DB that I can remember. Even in the final battle, he's just standing their veiled as a zombie until the crucial moment.

In White Nights, Cowl would have exterminated the White Court if Dresden hadn't intervened and saved the Raiths (making them more powerful than ever.) Lara was the one who instigated the attacks. We don't know when the Malvora hooked up with Cowl, but the plan was Lara's.

I don't think Cowl is a good guy (though he thinks he is), but I'm not sure that he's BC judging by what we know the BC has tried to do and what Cowl has tried to do. I'd think of him as a darker Dresden.

EDIT: Also, FWIW, it was Cowl and the Malvora who drew Dresden's attentions to the attacks.

EDIT2: Also, I believe it was Corpsetaker and maybe Grevane who had the deal with the Reds. Corpsetaker had dealings with the Fomor in GS, which makes her more suspicious in terms of BC material to me. OTOH, we have evidence Cowl was aware of it, given his statement that the Council would fall within a few days.
in WN Cowl would not have wiped out the WCV. he would have gained contol of them. they were supposed to be involved in the war aiding the RCV. thanks to Dresden backing Lara he took them out of the war. Cowl planned on using Vitto to get them back in the war since the RCV were weakening.

Vitto worked for Cowl and was going to burn a building down and kill dresden and the Ordo. Cowl did not bring Dresden's attention to the culling, Madrigal did it w/out Vitto or Cowl's order.

as for Cowl not killing anyone in DB.... haha. he practically killed Dresden a few times. by breaking the circle he knew the Erl would want to kill him. Harry would have died  when Cowl absorbed the Darkhallow as well as Ramirez and thousands of others. only reason he didn't kill Harry was he was worried about Dresden's Death Curse so close to the ritual time.
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Offline Shamshiel

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2012, 08:58:48 PM »
1- Grevane didn't think Harry was a Kemmlerite. he sensed dark/ necro magic trace in Harry. that is it. not once did he call him a Kemmlerite.

He didn't come right out and say it in those words, no. He says "You are, in fact, more of my own persuasion" and "This need not end in bloodshed - particularly not now, so close to the end of the race. Join me against the others." The implication is that he thinks he and Harry have been working at the same goal, Kemmler's teachings, ("the race") and that they should work together against the other Kemmlerites.

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2- Cowl did not imply he met Grevane and CT before, he comes out and says it directly in that chapter i provided. he speaks and works with them.

He says he has seen them in action before, and that when it comes down to it, he's the smart one who actually gets things done. That's not the same thing as speaking and working with them.

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3- Harry senses the dark magic in Cowl when they meet in front of the bookstore. much like himself. than when Cowl flees he senses a stronger use of the dark magic. also using the Darkhallow is dark magic. why give away yourself using necro magic if you don't need to? it is a tactical decision.

What's tactical about it?

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4- Cowl is bonkers. p324 same chapter. H " your the orrect madman for the job."
C, "i do not percieve myself to be mad. but if i were truly mad, would i be able to tell."

He's probably not all there, but he's at least capable of considering the question. Has Harry not wondered the same thing?

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5- he considered himself the lesser of the 3 evils. which is a load of bunk since he would be responsible for killing thousands still by finishing the Darkhallow instead of stopping it.

He considered himself different based on what was going happen to the world if Grevane or Corpsetaker ascended versus if he ascended.

Quote
6- he spared Harry?! he would have killed him in at the book store. he killed him by breaking the circle holding Erl knowing he would come back to kill him. he told dresden if he came to the ritual he would kill him.

Harry's still alive, isn't he?

He never indicated that he intended to kill Harry at the bookstore. He seemed more interesting in taking the book and testing his strength. He then left when a couple wolves showed up rather than press matters.

He told Harry he would kill him if he got in the way of his plans to save the world from an evil dark god. Harry got in his way twice anyway. He let Harry go after the Erlking summoning, even though he was at his mercy. Yes, he assumed that the Erlking would come back later and finish him off, but he still spared him. He even spared him at the Darkhallow, even when Evil Bob told him the ritual would likely fail with Dresden alive.

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7- he wasn't going to wipe out the WCV he was going to place Vitto at its head to run it for him.

Vitto turned on his own people. The Malvoras and Skavis all died, and all the Raiths would have died. The only White Court vampire to survive would have been Vitto, and any lesser vamps who didn't attend. The White Court would have been basically extinct. Nowhere did Cowl or Vitto imply the goal of the operation was to consolidate power under Vitto, and it wouldn't have made very much sense. If that's what they wanted, they should have not involved Dresden and Cowl should have killed the Skavis.

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8- why not tell him the WCouncil is corrupt it will make him not trust them and take away an ally from him if he stops working with them. he tells them the WC will fall perhaps tomorrow. Cowl was planning on gaining that power from the Darkhallow so he basically said he was going to destroy the WC.

And why did Cowl need to be so indirect with Harry, who he clearly outclassed? Why did he talk about the horrible things Grevane and Corpsetaker were going to do to the world that he needed to stop?

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9- he was burning the Erl book because he did not want the summoning ritual to be used by someone to stop the Darkhallow. since he had already had the book he knew the ritual.

If Cowl was BC, he could have just asked Peabody and they could have never written the book.

in WN Cowl would not have wiped out the WCV. he would have gained contol of them. they were supposed to be involved in the war aiding the RCV. thanks to Dresden backing Lara he took them out of the war. Cowl planned on using Vitto to get them back in the war since the RCV were weakening.

Vitto worked for Cowl and was going to burn a building down and kill dresden and the Ordo. Cowl did not bring Dresden's attention to the culling, Madrigal did it w/out Vitto or Cowl's order.

as for Cowl not killing anyone in DB.... haha. he practically killed Dresden a few times. by breaking the circle he knew the Erl would want to kill him. Harry would have died  when Cowl absorbed the Darkhallow as well as Ramirez and thousands of others. only reason he didn't kill Harry was he was worried about Dresden's Death Curse so close to the ritual time.

The only thing Cowl would have gained control of would be the massive pile of WCV corpses he and his agent created.

Lara instigated the Skavis and Malvora plots to kill mortal women, not Cowl.  The only direct action Cowl took in White Night was to watch his servant murder nearly all the WCVs. No WCVs would have survived had Dresden not intervened.

Unless Dresden held Erlking in that circle until he died of old age, Dresden had already screwed himself over. Cowl breaking the circle changed nothing with regard to what the Erlking was going to do to Dresden when he got a chance.

Cowl was not afraid of Dresden's death curse, and as Dresden said, he wouldn't need anything near as powerful as his death curse to stop Cowl at the moment he was drawing down the power.

And Cowl's actions in DB were nevertheless very different from the other bad guys, who ran around killing and black magicking indiscriminately. Cowl, meanwhile mugged Dresden, used an EMP, veiled himself, and tried to finish the Darkhallow.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 09:02:25 PM by Shamshiel »

Offline finnmckool

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2012, 09:53:39 PM »
But the corpses weren't the sum total of the WCV...just the ruling families. Thus leaving Vitto challenger free without having to deal with any of their games, or hide, from his people, his allegiance or purpose. Remember...they're the sneaky, back-stabby manipulators. If there was to be any meaningful and predictable control of them, it'd have to be total. Those were the ruling triumvirate families. There are plenty other "lesser houses" that Vitto could spin whatever he wanted to at, and start with a blank slate. Rebuild as he saw fit with the BC having his back.

Offline Cenphx

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2012, 12:28:59 AM »
The Erlking as the source of the hexenwulf belts doesn't feel right to me for the same reasons some of you already noted: he may be a predator and a hunter, but not evil or a perversion of nature, which the belts seem to be.

Also, I've always had the passing out of these belts linked in my head with the seatbelts used to make people who used them fall in love. (from a short story. Maybe Love Hurts?) Two different belts which are magic which cause addictions in the people who touch the magical item? It seems like too similar a tactic to be a coincidence. The love seatbelts were made by a red court vamp to make people fall in love so there would be less food for WCVs. IIRC there was also a hint that the RCV who made the seatbelts was taught by someone else the magic she needed to pull it off. I thought at the time it was a black court vamp, even Mavra, who taught the RCV the magic. Therefore, I thought maybe Mavra was one who made the hexenwulf belts.

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2012, 01:03:01 AM »
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Vitto turned on his own people. The Malvoras and Skavis all died, and all the Raiths would have died. The only White Court vampire to survive would have been Vitto, and any lesser vamps who didn't attend. The White Court would have been basically extinct. Nowhere did Cowl or Vitto imply the goal of the operation was to consolidate power under Vitto, and it wouldn't have made very much sense. If that's what they wanted, they should have not involved Dresden and Cowl should have killed the Skavis.

No, that was just the top ranked nobles, the bulk of the White Court would have been just fine.

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He says he has seen them in action before, and that when it comes down to it, he's the smart one who actually gets things done. That's not the same thing as speaking and working with them.


Doesn't he say something about talking and working with them after breaking the EK's circle?
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Offline Gman

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2012, 03:38:13 AM »
No, that was just the top ranked nobles, the bulk of the White Court would have been just fine.

Doesn't he say something about talking and working with them after breaking the EK's circle?

I agree. What Cowl did fits in with what I think is the BC mission. Take over or place traitors in the major powers. Cause the major powers to fight and weaken each other. Help those powers with your men or catspaws in charge (at least for a time). Cowl was to place his man in charge of the White Court and kill all major White Court members who could oppose Vittorio. He would take out the White Council's leadership and plunge them into chaos either destroying/crippling them or placing someone working for Cowl in charge.

Offline peregrine

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2012, 04:15:50 AM »
I think he knew that the power gained from that ritual is not enough to 'stop death' anr remake the world into a paradise. Kumori was young and innocent, and bought that nwhole line hook and sinker.
I think that Cowl is at least genuine in his goals, though I agree that the Darkhallow would probably not give him enough power, but you can't live in just a foundation of a house, the Darkhallow would give him more of an ability to gain the power he would actually need to do that.

Offline gborbonus

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2012, 05:19:56 PM »
I think the best Fit for who did this was the WK(perhaps Lara's influence).

But... I offer this up for debate... Did we SEE lara take over the WK?

For all we know, the WK might be pulling one over all of us.

I believe Thomas says: you must embrace the role.

WC vamps blend in very easily, and are smart. The WK didn't become the WK because he made mistakes that were costly as the one he made with Harry and Thomas.

Truth is, I don't particularly see any solid proof that the WK is under Lara's control. She could be under his control.

Any evidence to the contrary can be construed as evidence that the WK is more capable than we expect.

As for Cowl and Peabody,

Cowl could be working with the BC, it fits, but also having the BC make elaborate plans to make him appear one way or the other also fits...

These discussions are always hard, because if we make assumptions/conclusions based on faulty information, or lack thereof, we could be wrong, or draw the wrong conclusions for the right reasons. In the end, I could argue every single point. In a court of law, we call this circumstantial evidence, that lacks the necessary solidity of fact.


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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2012, 09:28:26 PM »
I think the best Fit for who did this was the WK(perhaps Lara's influence).

But... I offer this up for debate... Did we SEE lara take over the WK?

For all we know, the WK might be pulling one over all of us.

I believe Thomas says: you must embrace the role.

WC vamps blend in very easily, and are smart. The WK didn't become the WK because he made mistakes that were costly as the one he made with Harry and Thomas.

Truth is, I don't particularly see any solid proof that the WK is under Lara's control. She could be under his control.

Any evidence to the contrary can be construed as evidence that the WK is more capable than we expect.

By WoJ, he got himself enslaved. He isn't in control.
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Offline Cenphx

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2012, 10:07:23 PM »
Is it more proof that the wolf belts are from the NN that Benn's turned to ectoplasm when she died? If they orginated in our world would it have done so?

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2012, 10:09:24 PM »
Bob on Hexenwolves in FM (hatchet job, all quoted, but mixed for easy reading)
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“Hexenwolf,” Bob said, with a strong Germanic accent. “Spell wolf. The Church declared war on anyone who chose to become a Hexenwolf, and burned a huge number of people at the stake.  The most common way, back in France, was to make a deal with a demon or a devil or a powerful sorcerer. You get a wolf-hide belt, put it on, say the magic words, and whammy, you’re a wolf. A Hexenwolf.  You don’t use your own magic to become a wolf. You use someone else’s.  It’s different because you’re employing a talisman. Sometimes it’s a ring or amulet, but usually it’s a belt. The talisman provides an anchor for a spirit of bestial rage. Nasty thing from the bad side of the Nevernever. That spirit wraps around a human personality to keep it from being destroyed.  It leaves you with your own intellect and reason, but the spirit handles everything else.  And when you use a talisman to turn into a wolf, you lose all of your human inhibitions and so on, and just run on your unconscious desires, with the talisman-spirit in charge of the way the body moves. It’s really efficient. A huge wolf with human-level intelligence and animal-level ferocity.”

Possible Suspects
 - Victor Sells - unlikely, he was already dead, and while Harry said he was powerful, he didn't have a lot of training
 - Leonid Kravos - possible, he summoned demons that could have helped, but no evidence that he was THAT powerful, nor inclined to that form of magic, nor active that early
 - Madge Shelly - unlikely; although the most powerful of the ex-wives, we presume her contact with PapaR started due to Arturo's defiance, which was years later.
 - Mavra - possible, but doesn't seem to tie in with her darker magic style
 - Bianca - unlikely, it was probably too early for her to be that far along in her sorceress apprenticeship, and I don't think we had proof she was 'powerful'
 - Ortega - unlikely, no evidence he was that powerful of a sorcerer
 - Arianna - possible, seemed to have power, and may have been able to make the belts
 - Leah - unlikely, she DOES have a thing for transforming humans into dogs, but she wasn't crazy from the athame yet, and she wouldn't have wanted Harry dead.
 - Mab - unlikely, it all seems beneath her
 - Aurora - unlikely, no proof she was crazy yet
 - Erlking - possible; he may have made the belts, but I don't seem him giving them to Denton. Who else would he make them for, probably at Fae cost, who would then give them away to Denton for free?
 - Nicodemus - unlikely, no evidence that he's ever done magic on that scale
 - Thorned Namshiel - possible, due to presumed Blouncil ties and known magical ability
 - Lord Raith - possible/unlikely, i like to pin everything on him these days, and he knows magic, but him being cut off from using magic makes it nay impossible.
 - Lara Raith - unlikely, we haven't seen her do any magic other than the White Court Whammy
 - Madrigal Raith - unlikely, we never saw proof he would be in the 'powerful wizard' category
 - Madeline Raith - unlikely, like her brother, doesn't seem to have any magical ability
 - Skavis - unlikely, no evidence whatsoever of magical ability beyond standard White Court
 - Cowl - possible; he has enough power, is familiar with the NN, can handle demon-beast things, but what would his motivation have been?
 - Corpsetaker - possible; she knew SOMETHING about bodies, but doesn't seem like her forte
 - Grevane - unlikely; as a traditional necromancer, it doesn't seem like his bag
 - Skinwalker - possible, is powerful, familiar with darker magics, shapeshifting, and has helped at least once in a presumed Blouncil plot.
 - Theoretical Kumori/Elaine:  She's probably powerful enough; she spent time in Summer, and may have learned how to bind NN spirits to a belt like Bob described; she would definitely warn people about the Wouncil, but other than being a task Cowl gave her, wouldn't have motivation against Marcone.

Offline asetti

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2012, 11:09:09 PM »
" Erlking - possible; he may have made the belts, but I don't seem him giving them to Denton. Who else would he make them for, probably at Fae cost, who would then give them away to Denton for free?"
Ah.  But how do we know the FBI agents did not cut a deal with him for services or goods? 


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Offline Cenphx

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2012, 12:18:52 AM »
I reread Love Hurts. When Murphy says the seatbelts are like the wolf belts, Harry says yeah, exactly. So I think any theory which solves who gave out the wolf belts needs to consider who was behing the magic seatbelts in Love Hurts. He says the magic involved in creating them was delicate difficult magic for which there might not be three people on the entire WC who could pull it off. he also calls the belt a focus item with a routine built in-'you pour energy in one end, and you get results on the other.'.                  FWIW, that is how Harry describes the entropy curse ritual in Blood Bites-pour energy in, results come out. And 'delicate magic' seems to be a tag for Elaine's magic, iirc. Ergo, Elaine is BC, in league with outsiders (from whom the entropy curse comes) and is passing out magical objects and rituals to sow chaos.